Nakia's Vortech SC Built FX35

brammo350z said:
Yes I know I'll eventually get another FX35 and it will probably be another RWD, the thing with the AWD is you car lower it pass a certain point which makes it unstable and have body roll, and because I've done it before it will be easier the next time around without the trial and error. Honestly I wanna find a high mileage FX with a clean interior for cheap so I can remove the engine bore it to 100mm and do a 12:1 compression that way it will be a 3.8L on boost which will put me right about 800whp with a YSI V7 on E85 with a CD009 swap.
Click to expand...
Maybe consider not lowering it so much & a little more sidewall on those tires? It's a xover, so still looks good just 2" lower imo. AWD allows for a more narrow wheel & narrow tires = less weight & friction + what you run on the track will be identical to what you run on the street unlike rwd. Consider getting power from something that's not heavy & mounted right up front, worst possible spot & focusing a little less on raw power & more on the chassis? Built, stroked engine n/a putting down 300+awhp w/a 150-200 shot in reserve? Remote mounted turbo? Just a few thoughts & hoping you do another fx. Saw it on the vortech site awhile back. Very nice!
 
RWD and manual swap is the only way to go.

AWD just puts even more stress on the Automatic transmission, which can really only be classified as delicate even once it is built. I watched Raymond go through two of them, Rookie went through one, and jumbo has now gone through 1 or 2 not sure exactly.

CD009 is good to 1000+hp with minor upgrades.

You don't need AWD to hook up, just the right tires, suspension setup, clutch and driver.

I have an AWD and I am stripping it all out to convert to RWD and go CD009.
 
meme405 said:
RWD and manual swap is the only way to go.

AWD just puts even more stress on the Automatic transmission, which can really only be classified as delicate even once it is built. I watched Raymond go through two of them, Rookie went through one, and jumbo has now gone through 1 or 2 not sure exactly.

CD009 is good to 1000+hp with minor upgrades.

You don't need AWD to hook up, just the right tires, suspension setup, clutch and driver.

I have an AWD and I am stripping it all out to convert to RWD and go CD009.
Click to expand...
Always had a manual myself. Luv'em. Would consider manual but will loose awd. Not what I'm willing to part with. Loves me some corners in the rain, wot. Lots of rain in the sweaty south.
There's lots of Level 10 failures out there. L10 parts or builds will be avoided by me. IPT claims their build is good for 500 awhp. In order to push that, you need 700 @ the crank (approx. 30% awd loss). Sleeved block past 650. I'll pass. Under 450-475 hp/tq is my tops.
Love to know what jumbo experienced & who did the work/maker of parts. If he can share, maybe we can figure out the flaw. Is it AWD? Brammo's trans apparently held under massive power. Turbo might be too much torque down low. Had three very reputable shops steer me away from going turbo for multiple reasons. Either way, willing to bet the IPT trans will hold as they say it will.
One more + about AWD & automatic. Consistent times on/off the track. RWD, not so much. With RWD on the street, more power & gearing you have the more wheel spin will result unless you're running around with slicks. My reasons for wanting & staying AWD.
 
brammo350z said:
Yes I know I'll eventually get another FX35 and it will probably be another RWD, the thing with the AWD is you car lower it pass a certain point which makes it unstable and have body roll, and because I've done it before it will be easier the next time around without the trial and error. Honestly I wanna find a high mileage FX with a clean interior for cheap so I can remove the engine bore it to 100mm and do a 12:1 compression that way it will be a 3.8L on boost which will put me right about 800whp with a YSI V7 on E85 with a CD009 swap.
Click to expand...
I love how you're already thinking of your next projects... Hard to concentrate on the current ones when you've got SO many ideas dancing around your head :)
 
onthemove said:
Love to know what jumbo experienced & who did the work/maker of parts. If he can share, maybe we can figure out the flaw. Is it AWD? Brammo's trans apparently held under massive power. Turbo might be too much torque down low. Had three very reputable shops steer me away from going turbo for multiple reasons. Either way, willing to bet the IPT trans will hold as they say it will.
Click to expand...
Jumbo has an ongoing thread for his second build... GREAT read! The AWD tranny apparently never fully locks in regular D mode, so you need to put it into manumatic when you're pushing extra ponies... Not sure if that will completely fix the issue though...
 
DatMan said:
Jumbo has an ongoing thread for his second build... GREAT read! The AWD tranny apparently never fully locks in regular D mode, so you need to put it into manumatic when you're pushing extra ponies... Not sure if that will completely fix the issue though...
Click to expand...
What do you mean by "locks"? The torque converter?
 
onthemove said:
What do you mean by "locks"? The torque converter?
Click to expand...

The tranny slips.

I'm fairly certain based on the results others have seen, if Nakia had managed to make his car hook up with the final sorts of numbers he was talking about, he would have killed his tranny in no time, if not instantaneously that is.
 
The tranny slips.
I'm fairly certain based on the results others have seen, if Nakia had managed to make his car hook up with the final sorts of numbers he was talking about, he would have killed his tranny in no time, if not instantaneously that is.[/QUOTE]
Slippy slippy no good. Wonder if jumborules trans is over-cooled? The torque converter might not lock up if the trans. is too cool & @ low rpm's. Stall speed at or above the torque spike might be beneficial. Knowing temps when the slippies occur might be nice as well. Don't know much about auto trans. except how NOT to install a shift kit. Do know that when I build, will put faith in IPT.
 
Last edited:
Data is spotty at best; the Torque Converter never locks in automatic, but it does in Manu-matic. In talking with Specialty Z, this is actually not a surprise anymore - this particular transmission & management software has this same problem no matter what the car happens to be. He experienced the same thing in one of his own cars.

My torque converter is modified for a higher stall, which if I had to do over again, I probably would not. My trans cooler is managed by a thermostat, so I don't think I'm over-cooled. Then I also have the Transgo Shift kit and a modified basket that allowed us to install additional clutch plates.

The slipping occurs only because of the torque generated. The twin-scroll setup puts down right at 420wtq without slipping (at least for now). So I can have my ECU pull timing as we approach that torque limit.
 
Brammo @ 570whp & trans started slipping but don't know ft lbs.? Dare I guess mid 400 ft lbs. My thought was that if a torque converter were to have a high enough stall speed that (the stall speed allowing slip as it's function) it might get over a potential "hump", so to speak, in the rpm range where torque is overcoming transmission pressure to clutches & then the slippity slip slips. The "hump" that might show up on a dyno in the high2-3k rpm range. Quote from an LS1 site; "When dyno'd unlocked the converter will flash and cause a big torque spike that is a bit unrealistic so that's one reason you dyno with the converter locked to flatten the torque curve." Not like this knucklehead with very limited knowledge on the subject is going to solve this problem, but I'd like to know, for those suffering the re5r05a shortfalls & for myself, should I chose to get to this point.
Questioning the main tech (can't remember his name, Jason?) @ Transgo to learn more about the v.b. (line pressure, springs & valves), talking to valvoline and/or other trans. oil companies & a couple top fella's at some of the better transmission build shops, maybe even some american brands & then piecing the info together might help. I think there's a kit to allow an american trans (GM?) to bolt up? Or just say fuck it, you got enough power & enjoy!
 
If you actually plan on driving the car, a higher stall TC is terrible to live with. Look at what Jumbo posted right above you - also I've driven a few cars with high stall TCs and it's just not a great experience. I'd only do it if drag racing is your primary goal.

Sure you could probably bolt up a powerglide or something but again it's no longer very streetable and don't think AWD will work anymore.
 
shadow191 said:
If you actually plan on driving the car, a higher stall TC is terrible to live with. Look at what Jumbo posted right above you - also I've driven a few cars with high stall TCs and it's just not a great experience. I'd only do it if drag racing is your primary goal.

Sure you could probably bolt up a powerglide or something but again it's no longer very streetable and don't think AWD will work anymore.
Click to expand...
JR isn't awd though, right? I don't have much experience w/auto's, just brainstorming & throwing out what little I've got to offer in an attempt to think outside the box a bit. I imagine he's got to be a little peeved, having to continually deal w/this b.s. Wouldn't think 500 hp/ft lbs is too much to ask for out a built modern-day trans. My last 2c would be to check out the kit IPT sells & maybe the clutch packs are of better quality.
I've done a little reading on this subject. Came across all sorts of info when I failed @ my transgo install. Gotta say, I'm swaying heavily towards a vortech @ this point, for multiple reasons. Brammo's posts are golden. I think that's the problem ultimately, too much torque, too fast for the re5r05a whereas a cent. s.c. does so more gradually. Didn't think a transmission would play a role in decision making process for FI. Guess I figured out what so many already have.
 
onthemove said:
JR isn't awd though, right? Didn't think a transmission would play a role in decision making process for FI. Guess I figured out what so many already have.
Click to expand...

Correct, I'm RWD.

For sure the 5AT has limited all the FX FI builds all the way back to Rookie (1st turbo FX on the scene) - who ended up swapping in a manual trans. The discussion is all here if the proper searches are used but the info all came out as the platform was new and maturing along side the 350Z and G35. Even TurboCad started a TT build with the AWD platform but stalled out at the sheer amount of fabrication needed to support the conversion to FI. Had he been successful, it would have essentially been a GTR in FX clothing, before the GTR even came out.

Superchargers have always been the safer, low boost option - most of them not even requiring a built motor. At 6-8 PSI or so I wouldn't hesitate to use a stock driveline (maybe even non-intercooled), with a shift kit and upgraded trans cooler. The more linear torque application doesn't shock the driveline and tuning can always be used to further smooth out torque, but that's the limiting factor - torque through the 5AT transmission. Build to that limit with a little factor of safety and enjoy it.
 
Yep, word from the wise that is. I can't imagine a manual in the FX though & will not part w/AWD, so I've got a known line in the sand then. Been looking into the HKS s.c.:rofl:. Not the old but the new GT8555 V2. That thing is pretty badass imo. Not going to deliver the kind of #'s a vortech will, ever, but it's a nice setup. HKS is moving to the states & support seems to have improved a lot. Vortech is a backup plan to the HKS in case things get weird. I really want a remote mounted turbo but would hate to part w/the invidia + mr. tuner says, "no asshole, big time turbo lag!". I'm not convinced, but whatever. HKS or remote T for me please:).
I was thinking about throwing caution & financial sense to the wind & just building the snot out of this FX but you know what, there's just no need, not even the desire to anymore having read the death threads of all those that were gobbled up in this endeavor. I am very appreciative of those that have shared their successes & failures. It's gotten to be so much more enjoyable since I've done what I've done, just wish I did it sooner. For now, whatever my spreadsheet tells me is the smartest way to go regarding f.i. & my stock block & trans, that's what I'll do. Eventually within the next year or so I'd love to have a JR type fx, be it s.c. or turbo, so I just need to make sure that my choice will get me into a reasonable hp/tq zone now with some room to grow when the dt can handle it.
 
Here are a few interesting quotes that I've collected in my searches, all from 350z sites. There are more that are relevant but I chose these. Maybe someone reading this has an answer or two? The first quote is from Forged Perf. & the other three from average posters.

Sharif@Forged
Sponsor
Forged Performance
"350-400whp and whp/lbft is easily managable. We are looking for a local subjet to test out our new FP valve body upgrade Interested? upload_2017-9-1_0-4-15.gif"
The quote above is from late 2008. He is referring to a stock transmission. Easily managed? If a stock trans. can handle up to 400 ft lbs, yet JR's trans will not stop slipping past 420 ft lbs, why build the trans at all?

"The stock trans will be fine at the power levels you want. As long as you're using the stock ecu or a stand-a-lone that you can tune the transmission to work with the power. That's where most guys fall short."
Tuning the trans is where most guys fall short? Never heard that before.

"Transmissions are rated in torque capacity and not HP. Any vendor that quotes you that they can modify your tranny to handle Xhp can't be trusted. It's torque that's going to break things. With that said, I believe the JATCO 5AT in the G35 is rated to handle around 325 ft/lbs. The same tranny with heavier components can handle over 400 ft/lbs in the Titan."
This is my fav & most honest I found. I think it's 333 ft lbs, but who's counting? Yes, torque brakes shit, got it now. The Titan's trans can handle over 400 ft lbs? Now that's interesting. If true & if it will fit. Why, if this is true, that from the factory it'll handle this amount of torque? It's a truck, towing, understand that but it's still a re5ro5a? Is it physically larger & therefore can house more heavy-duty parts? This might be promising.

"Man its really a shame what has happened to this site with all the no it alls here.I have been running a s/c then twin turbo's on my 5at for over 50,000 miles with out a problem.
All you morons who say it cant be done are just ignorant idiots who know next to nothing about transmissions.As long as you get a v/b mod and a large external trans cooler you will be fine.
Please if you are going to post in a thread at least know what the *** you are talking about......and to the 6mt's anytime you want to run just remember 1 thing.....the 5at dosent loose boost between shifts like the 6mt does."
Hmmm.......Really? The car is much lighter than the xover, so maybe?
 
onthemove, post: 1199656, member: 12638"]Here are a few interesting quotes that I've collected in my searches, all from 350z sites. There are more that are relevant but I chose these. Maybe someone reading this has an answer or two? The first quote is from Forged Perf. & the other three from average posters.

Sharif@Forged
Sponsor
Forged Performance
"350-400whp and whp/lbft is easily managable. We are looking for a local subjet to test out our new FP valve body upgrade Interested? View attachment 428011"
The quote above is from late 2008. He is referring to a stock transmission. Easily managed? If a stock trans. can handle up to 400 ft lbs, yet JR's trans will not stop slipping past 420 ft lbs, why build the trans at all? - His issues may have more to do with Level10 than building the transmission. It's pretty common to hear across multiple platforms that Level10 rebuilds don't hold the power they claim. In a few instances, their rebuilds just used OEM parts since upgraded clutches didn't even exist for those transmissions at the time. So they would get a transmission that was slipping and then after rebuild it would magically not slip - wasn't that they upgraded anything, it was that they replaced worn out parts. Eventually the transmission would fail again since the OEM parts will wear out. Not sure if IPT is better but they don't have as bad of a reputation. Go look at Level10 discussion on the BMW forums or Supra forums, it's generally not positive.

"The stock trans will be fine at the power levels you want. As long as you're using the stock ecu or a stand-a-lone that you can tune the transmission to work with the power. That's where most guys fall short."
Tuning the trans is where most guys fall short? Never heard that before. - If you get a tune like Uprev (Osiris) then it has the ability to change the torque values that the TCM sees. So a tuner could basically max them out which would trick the transmission into increasing line pressure and shifting faster. Similar to the valve body mod. But it's generally agreed that doing this mechanically is a better option.

"Transmissions are rated in torque capacity and not HP. Any vendor that quotes you that they can modify your tranny to handle Xhp can't be trusted. It's torque that's going to break things. With that said, I believe the JATCO 5AT in the G35 is rated to handle around 325 ft/lbs. The same tranny with heavier components can handle over 400 ft/lbs in the Titan."
This is my fav & most honest I found. I think it's 333 ft lbs, but who's counting? Yes, torque brakes shit, got it now. The Titan's trans can handle over 400 ft lbs? Now that's interesting. If true & if it will fit. Why, if this is true, that from the factory it'll handle this amount of torque? It's a truck, towing, understand that but it's still a re5ro5a? Is it physically larger & therefore can house more heavy-duty parts? This might be promising. - Not physically larger, gear ratios are different though. Not sure what other difference there is that would result in higher torque rating. But if you look at the Titan boards, they have pretty much the same issues trying to get the transmission to hold together under high power.

"Man its really a shame what has happened to this site with all the no it alls here.I have been running a s/c then twin turbo's on my 5at for over 50,000 miles with out a problem.
All you morons who say it cant be done are just ignorant idiots who know next to nothing about transmissions.As long as you get a v/b mod and a large external trans cooler you will be fine.
Please if you are going to post in a thread at least know what the *** you are talking about......and to the 6mt's anytime you want to run just remember 1 thing.....the 5at dosent loose boost between shifts like the 6mt does."
Hmmm.......Really? The car is much lighter than the xover, so maybe? - The poster isn't providing any context. If he just drove his car on the street and made highway runs then the transmission would absolutely be fine for 50K and just a valve body. If he actually took it to the strip, it would not hold up as long. Even if he didn't, who knows how he drove the car. If he went easy on it it would last longer. I really doubt someone who made full throttle pulls regularly while exceeding the torque limits of the transmission would see 50K out of it. Maybe he learned to lift during the shift, lots of guys with high HP automatics do in order to prevent the flare during shifts. I don't think this would be applicable to you especially if you plan to take it to the 1/4. Also the drivetrain stress from a heavy car and AWD will not help with transmission life. I've been lined up behind high hp AWD cars at the track and if they break it's more often at the launch. Light turns green and something goes bang. Even if you build the transmission to survive high hp, not sure if they make upgraded transfer case yet. That can fail too.[/QUOTE]
 
Let's not forget that anybody that justifies their own opinion with their own single experience does not understand things like science and physics. One example used as proof without context is just as bad as the people he is criticizing. You cannot use one data point to justify your claim that "everybody" else is wrong. This is the very definition of, "anecdotal evidence" which is not evidence at all, but a single observation. Im an engineer and this kind of thing bugs me.

What boost level and torque was his trans seeing? How many miles did each setup see? What supporting modifications?

Shadow is right - the FX is heavier and with the AWD option, a whole different animal.

One extra note - only my first transmission was built with Level 10 internals and it was not until my third transmission that we modified the basket to accept more clutch plates. The third (current trans) is set for the highest torque levels of the three I have used and is holding at 420wtq at 14psi. The twin scroll turbo powerband may have something to do with a more gentle torque delivery - the curve is pretty flat now.
 
"I've been lined up behind high hp AWD cars at the track and if they break it's more often at the launch."
I can see that happening. Did you chuckle?
Check this out though. AWD has four 1/2 shafts, 2 diffs, 2 d.s.'s, the trans & the transfer case. That's a lot of points of interest. I don't know how much the transfer case itself will absorb before tq hits the trans & I don't know what the trans case itself can handle, but it should take some impact off the rear 1/2 of the drive train & trans. I do know Datman had 330 awhp with the stillen blower, which is lots of immediate, down-low type torque. For this reason, my best semi-quasi-forever-learning educated guess would be that the awd might be better off. Cf driveshafts will help absorb the shock a bit as well. My thought's were that because of all that's going on down there, there's more links in the chain, so to speak, & power is diffused among them. I'll email John & see what he says, copy his reply & post it.
My shop gave me some quotes on driveshafts, cf & alum., & also gave me quotes on the 1/2 shafts. They work w/a lot of awd cars & I was told if I put down enough power, I might need'em, the axles that is. Hope not! I would think that sure, at some level of power I'd need'em, but I doubt the rest of the drivetrain, even with IPT's supposed 500 awhp (tq???) trans would be stout enough for the axles to be the week link, though I must say that's what I was expecting when I first starting modding/learning about the fx, for the axles to be the weak link. Shit.
Glad to see things are working out for you JR. Twin scrolls, what, one just wasn't enough then? Some people...I'm kidding.
"Not physically larger, gear ratios are different though. Not sure what other difference there is that would result in higher torque rating. But if you look at the Titan boards, they have pretty much the same issues trying to get the transmission to hold together under high power."
I wonder what does high power mean to these titan guys? I have to look into the titan trans, check their forums, the titan fsm & see if there's something different about it & if it is in fact rated @ 400 ft lbs stock. If it's a dead-end, then that's that. Datman said he had the Stillen around 330-340 awhp w/out issue? Per JR, S.C. @ 6-8, trans. cooler & the transgo sk via s.c. is going to be the way to go for now.
I love the knowledgeable feedback & hope I add something of value to the conversation.
 
onthemove said:
I do know Datman had 330 awhp with the stillen blower, which is lots of immediate, down-low type torque.
Click to expand...
Is there another DatMan on the forums? Or maybe another forum? Caust I WISH I was putting down that power! But not with a STILLEN... Looking to eventually go with a JWT...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top