vibration on steering wheel when braking

I currently have this exact same problem and I replaced my entire brake system, rotors, pads, lines and fluid - about two months ago. It was totally fine until about two weeks ago and then all of a sudden - serious shaking when braking at higher speeds. It's in the shop now, being checked while I'm traveling for work. Should have a diagnosis back by the end of this weekend.
 
I have this problem, too. You have not experienced it until you are driving down a mountain road at 80 mph and are trying to slow down. You guys feel your steering wheel shake, now imagine the whole car doing that.
 
I have the similar issue. But mine is mostly during daytime or hot weather. During nite, the is less vibration.

I am using powerslot slotted rotors for the front. Powerslot has replaced my rotor under warranty and according to them, I am the first person in Canada returning their FX rotor. I am still having the same problem with the new one.

I had my mechanics friend took a look and tested drive my FX. He was saying that it is not the rotor, since this is the second pair (brand new). It is my uneven stopping power front and back. When I hit the brake, the front stops much better than the back (different wheel speed comparing front to the back) and the traction system interprets this as a slip and tried to release the brake.

During hot days, my power slot with Hawk HPS works too well due to higher temperature and caused this computer to confuse. However, during the night, the brake has weaker stopping power due to lower temperature. However, the vibration is still sensible after the brakes are warm up.

I will try to replace my rear rotor and pad (still all OEM) with power slot w/ HPS and see what is going to happen.
 
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Response to the "judder" from PowerSlot

Response from the tech I emailed at PowerSlot:


Hi Ron...

Our products are no more delicate than any other rotors out there on the market. If the product is installed correctly, and the correct pads are used for the type of driving that the vehicle will be exposed to, there should be absolutely no problems.

I've spent 10+ years working in repair shops, both independent and dealerships, and I've only seen one fellow mechanic take out a dial indicator to confrim that rotor runout was within spec after installing new or machined rotors. Most of the time, things come together fine...but sometimes they don't, and thats when brake vibrations develop 5-10K miles down the road. The only way to know if a runout condition exists that will cause a problem in the future is to measure runout during installation. I feel comfortable making the statement that 99% of installers do not do this...that's probably wishful thinking but regardless, it's true.

Too many people think that brakes are simple, and procedures do not need to be adhered to. I'm not sure of your level of automotive experience, but I'll throw out an analogy I make to our customers on a daily basis:

In the engine building world, especially the performance engine building world....would one assemble an engine without measureing any of the oil clearances during assembly...and wait until the engine prematurely failed to dive in and attempt to determine what went wrong?....or would one measure and confirm all clearances during assembly so that the engine did not prematurely fail therefore requiring no investigation down the road. Same thing with brakes, but brakes are cheaper and seemingly more simple so the same attention is not applied in most cases.

Here is an example of a problem that would go unnoticed for several thousand miles due to negligence during installation and some natural occurances:

If there is a speck of rust, dust, or debris on your 5.5" diameter hub and that spec is 0.001" thick... it will cause your rotor runout to climb to 0.003" or so, which is out factory specification....even if the rotor is absolutely perfect as far as runout goes. It has nothing to do with a fragile rotor...it's just simple trigonometry. At this point, we haven't even installed the wheels yet, and already, that spec of dust on the hub has thrown rotor runout out of specification.

Let's say that we did measure runout and confirm it to be within factory spec, but the vehicle is driven in a moist, corrosive environment...rust may develop between the steel hub and the cast iron rotor, jacking the rotor away from the hub as it develops...creating an additional runout condition.

Now, say you get a flat tire and tighten the lug nuts with the lug wrench that comes with your car...the torque will not be even on all 5 lugs. This can further induce rotor runout....for example, say you have a peanut butter sandwich with 1/2" of peanut butter between the 2 pieces of bread. If you set your hand down on top of the sandwich and apply even pressure across the top slice of bread, the peanut butter will ooze out evenly on all sides of the sandwich....but if you shift your pressure to one side of the sandwich (kinda like unevenly torquing lug nuts)...all of the peanut butter will ooze out of the opposite side of the sandwich. Cast iron works the same way...if you put it under stress, it wants to ooze out or displace, granted...to a considerably lower level than the peanut butter in your sandwich, but it still occurs. If it occurs evenly, no problem will exist, but if it occurs unevenly, then more iron will displace in one direction than the other, causing the rotor to distort and warp. This is perhaps the only way that one can warp a rotor.

At this point, we've got 3 different things that can affect the runout of the installed rotor...for better or for worse. The factory doesn't publish a maximum rotor runout specification because it's fun, they do it because unless it's adhered to, problems will result.

A warped rotor in itself, or a runout condition in itself, will not cause a vibration of any sort in most cases because the caliper will simply float back and forth and follow the rotor with no hydraulic feedback into the system. It's not until the runout condition picks up uneven pad transfer that the distance between the brake pads begins to change once or more times per rotor revolution which eventually snowballs into a very irritation brake vibration of which you are feeling the beginning stages.

I don't know what's wrong with your car. All I can do is provide you and your technician with the detailed mechanics behind the operation of a brake system and a list of probable causes of your issue to aid in the diagnostic process. My previous attachment outlined the methods, should they be adhered to, that will prevent brake vibrations throughout the life of the parts, which should be considerably longer than you've experienced.

I'm sorry that you have lost faith in our products, and I feel that your emotions in this case are unwarranted. We will do everything we can to aid in solving your problem and making you a satified customer, but we will not compensate for issues outside of our control.

Please let me know if you have any further comments or questions.

Thank you,

Pat McCleish
Tech Support
Powerslot
Centric Parts
StopTech

---------- Post added at 03:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:08 AM ----------

Response from the Sales Manager:

Hello Ron,
Thank you for the feedback. Pads can be seperated into two groups. Abrassive and non-abrassive.
Based on your feedback I would suggest an abbrasive pad. Light driving in flat areas, freeway, traffic, etc limit the ability for the pads to lay down an even transfer layer. This is common and a cause of cold judder, meaning the steering wheel shakes as you exit the freeway and slow the car.
Changing to an abbrassive pad will clean the rotor while driving. The rotor and pad will be ready to do work hot and cold.
I will send you some suggestions Friday.
Yes - you can turn the rotors, just a skim cut to clean the friction surface.

Thank you,
Mark Cornwell
VP Sales & Marketing
StopTech
Power Slot
310-933-1100(voice)
562-201-4660(Cell)
310-933-1108(fax)

My previous email to him:

Mark,
Thank you for responding in a constructive manner.
1) How many miles did the OE parts last? about 20-25k
> 2) Why were they changed (worn out, judder, or don't know?) Pads were worn and I wanted to upgrade the rotors for better stopping power.
> 3) Where do you live? Herndon, VA.
> 4) How is the vehicle driven (Freeway, country roads, hills, city, stop/go rush hour, other?) My wife take the freeway into work. Light stop and go.
> 5) Any Towing? No towing. No tow hitch...
> 6) When driving, do you have any high energy stops (bottom of a hill and you have come to a complete stop?) We live in a pretty flat area. No real hills to speak of.
> 7) Wet/dry climate? Combination of both.
> 9) Driving styles - Does you and your wife drive the same way? Does anyone drive with their left foot on the brake (think about this, in traffic, down hills, etc.?) We drive about the same. She definatly drive slower than me, but rarely get to drive her car. She just had me drive it recently to identify the "judder" issue.
I will defiantly have the rotor rechecked by a different mech. A
second opinion or sorts. I thought I paired the rotor with the perfect
pad. I thought HAWK was a suggested match. Is it worth the time and
$$$ to replace the pad and see if the issue persists? Also, can your
rotors be turned if the are slightly "out-of whack", according to my
brake guy. I could try re-greasing the pad to see it that helps. I
know you guys have a great product. My G35x is an example of a perfect
combo of rotors and pads. I have quiet a few miles on the G35 and
everything looks/funcitons as new as the day I had them installed.
Maybe the FX35's are just harder on brake parts? Who knows...
Thanks again for your time. I look forward to your advice.
 
Update...

Figured out how to get rid of the vibration. Since my wife drive the car everyday and is not a heavy braker, I had to do another high speed "brake-in". Found a low traffic road near the airport and speed up to 80 or 90mph. Hit the brakes hard but not as to activate the abs (and don't come to a complete stop). Repeat 8-10 times. It took 10 times for the pads smooth out. The guys at Powerslot said something about a transfer layer between the pad and rotor. Since my wife never heats up the brakes and refreshes the transfer layer, I guess I had a build up of "gunk" between the pad and rotor making the car shake (through the steering wheel) when the brakes were applied. Tech called it the judder.

So far problem solved. He is some reading material for those of you who are so inclinded: 3 W's (can't do links till I get to 10 posts I guess) stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_warped_brakedisk.shtml

Hope this helps someone. Saved me some money and time in the waiting room.
 
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White_Hair said:
I have the similar issue. But mine is mostly during daytime or hot weather. During nite, the is less vibration.

I am using powerslot slotted rotors for the front. Powerslot has replaced my rotor under warranty and according to them, I am the first person in Canada returning their FX rotor. I am still having the same problem with the new one.

I had my mechanics friend took a look and tested drive my FX. He was saying that it is not the rotor, since this is the second pair (brand new). It is my uneven stopping power front and back. When I hit the brake, the front stops much better than the back (different wheel speed comparing front to the back) and the traction system interprets this as a slip and tried to release the brake.

During hot days, my power slot with Hawk HPS works too well due to higher temperature and caused this computer to confuse. However, during the night, the brake has weaker stopping power due to lower temperature. However, the vibration is still sensible after the brakes are warm up.

I will try to replace my rear rotor and pad (still all OEM) with power slot w/ HPS and see what is going to happen.
Click to expand...

I disagree, and no offense but your mechanic's explanation seems a bit far fetched. I had Powerslots on my FX35 and replaced them after six months because of the ridiculous vibration that could be felt throughout the entire car. Their rotors are garbage and the problem went away as soon as I switched to Centric Premiums (and it has not come back after more than a year, my mom bought the car so I am well aware of any issues it might have). If you read reviews, vibration is a major complaint with Powerslots.
 
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Brake vibrations....

I somewhat agree with Greg... Fronts are supposed to stop with more force than the rear that’s why the front rotors are twice the size than the rear.

After emails back and forth with powerslot, I am shocked you got them to replace the rotors under warranty. They put up a good defense. They told me the ceramic pad and slotted rotors are a good combo for someone who is hard on their brakes (like me). But my wife drives like a grandma (not hard on the brakes). So, according to powerslot and another Brake guy they hooked me up with, slotted rotors and ceramic pad need an even transfer layer between them. After a while of normal driving a layer of "junk" (for lack of a better term) build up between them. It takes a bunch (8-10) of high speed stop to fix it. I did not believe it at first either. Go out and find a lesser traveled road, get the FX to 80 or 90 mph and slam on brakes. Nothing crazy, don't lock up or activate the abs, just jam them on hard like you were testing brake distance for Car and Driver. After about the sixth or seventh one you will start to notice some brake fade. Not to mention the smell of burning brake pads. That smell is the crap layer burning off. After ten runs up and down the airport road, my brake judders/vibration is gone. I have a blue'ish film over the rotor now. Smooth and even brake feeling also. So noticeable my wife thinks I replaced something.

Seriously, try this before you go out and buy something else. PowerSlot is a good brand; I have had these things on my G35 for years. They work great and last forever. The FX is just a beast on brakes. I guess that’s what we get with 20" wheels, small calipers, and a heavy car. Love that combo.

Try it!!!
:tup:
 
yeah, this is a problem with my rotoras too, you gotta really beat them once in a while to burn the deposits off, if you drive it easy all the time then it will build up a vibration too.

also, the absolute worse thing you can do for your brakes is get them really hot, then come to a stop & keep your foot on the brake... this will cause vibrations that have nothing to do with the quality of your brakes really, better higher performance brakes suffer from these symptoms way more than regular generic or oem type pads which just fade to nothing when they get hot... more aggressive brakes will need this bedding procedure more & will suffer more if you really heat them up good & then come to rest with your foot on the brake stationary... this is something you have to be concious of, getting used to putting the car in neutral at a light or even into park, but avoid heavy stationary clamping forces when the brakes are pretty hot... this is characteristic of higher performance brakes & if you don't know better then yeah, you might think that the brakes are crap, even though they are better
 
I think I have this issue because I downshift to slow down. I almost never use my brakes. Plus I've gotten so comfortable with it, that I never get on the brakes hard. I've being trying to do this lately though to see if it helps the issue. I leave it in 5th and brake later and harder before a turn.
 
same thing, I feather the brakes & downshift..

got vibration & thought that it was from overtightening the rotor to hat pins, so retorqued to correct 5'lb's, use a torquewrench to mount the wheel lugs, cut the rotors, bedded the pads & it was fine again, did a track day & everything, it was fine, but a month later I start to get steering wheel vibrations when braking, worse when the pedal is just feathered... gets worse & worse to the point that the steering wheel would ocillate back & forth violently at just the right speed & amount of braking....

I have a new set of rotors but figured wtf, can't hurt, so I beat the brakes & got them real hot, then several hard ~ 80-5 mph stops, but always release the pedal before stopping & accelerate again, gotta do them sucessively or it don't work as well but after like 2 sets of 5 good stops in a row & misc hard stops here & there I'd say it's about 80% better, feels like I fixed something.

gotta get her out on a hwy late at night when no ones behind & repeatly accelerate hard & then stop hard.... don't know if I can get it back to no vibration at all but I'll try some more before swapping out new rotors, but so far it's made a huge improvement...

---------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 PM ----------

also, I do beat up my brakes & use them hard at times, but I think I'm very guilty of coming to a stop after that & then keeping the brakes clamped, a few redlight stops like that is probably a big part of my vibration problem I think... minor mod idea: **need a brake temperature sensor with a red light indicator to notify you when it's not safe to sit at a light with your foot on the brake**:laugh:...
 
Finally, an easy fix...

It always makes me happy when it’s an easy/fun fix for something as troublesome as brake judder. Who doesn’t like flooring it and then jamming on the brakes? Your mechanic would charge you for this kind of fix. Glad to hear its working. I did the same thing for my G35. It has the same powerslot/ceramic pad set up. HUGE DIFFERENCE! Who knew???
 
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So only after a hard stop you shouldn't keep your foot on the brakes? I guess the best example I can think of is if you are on an interstate and for whatever reason traffic comes to a standstill. If you had to suddenly slam on the brakes to slow down, and ended up stopping, you would need to not leave your foot on the brake.
I would love to try some of those 80-5 braking maneuvers, but I don't really have anywhere to do it safely. Best I can think of is the frontage road late at night.
 
I just replaced my rear OEM rotor and pad to Powerslot about 2 weeks ago. Now I have both front and back rotors powerslot with Hawk HPS (rotors are slotted). I have no issue on vibration anymore. Powerslot makes decent product, IMO. Some people like it; some people don't.

One thing that my mechanic friend did when he replaced my rotors. He took out the slider bolt from both top and bottom of the caliper and re-grease it with anti-seize or some lubrication. I can't remeber exactly the reason for that, but I believe for the silder bolt to be able to slide forward and back during driving, so the pad always hits the rotor with the right angle during the vibration from driving and road condition. He said a lot of shops don't do that because the bolts seizes out very easily due to the long time period between each brake services.

Before my car was service, my other friend's car was there replacing his rotor as well, he had his slider bolt seize out and the slider bolt has no grease when the bolt was took out. The pads were wear in a 15 degree angle instead of flat.

I don't know if the above information are helpful or related to the vibration. But from my experience, I have no more vibration issues anymore. Car brakes smoothly. Just information sharing.

---------- Post added at 05:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:30 PM ----------
mcraerc said:
After emails back and forth with powerslot, I am shocked you got them to replace the rotors under warranty. They put up a good defense.
Click to expand...

Apparently my friend has a very good connection to powerslot distributor or some sort. He worked out the magic for me. I think the reason of my first set of powerslot rotor went back was that I was doing break-in for my new rotor during rain. :uhhh:

---------- Post added at 05:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:34 PM ----------
GJBenn85 said:
I disagree, and no offense but your mechanic's explanation seems a bit far fetched. I had Powerslots on my FX35 and replaced them after six months because of the ridiculous vibration that could be felt throughout the entire car. Their rotors are garbage and the problem went away as soon as I switched to Centric Premiums (and it has not come back after more than a year, my mom bought the car so I am well aware of any issues it might have). If you read reviews, vibration is a major complaint with Powerslots.
Click to expand...

Did you have powerslot in only front or rear?

I had vibration issue when I have powerslot in only front and rear with OEM. Then the tracking control is acting like crazy. The vibration is more like that your rear wheel is not able to stop and the front wheel is locked up and the ABS is trying to release the front while you are still hitting the brake.

I had no issues after I replaced the rear with powerslot.

Just information sharing. :.smile:
 
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You may want to make sure when the wheels are put on, that they are torqued to proper spec. Overtightening will sometimes cause a rotor to go out of round. My 2 cents.
 
i used to have vibration on the steering wheel.. change the rotors and brake pads and no more vibrations!!!
 
White_Hair said:
I guess I am lucky then. Have you replaced both front and rear with other brands?
Click to expand...

Yes, after I sold the car to my mom I replaced the Powerslots with solid Centric Premiums (such a nice son, haha). Been nearly a year and they are absolutely vibration free.
 
StuLax18 said:
I have this problem, too. You have not experienced it until you are driving down a mountain road at 80 mph and are trying to slow down. You guys feel your steering wheel shake, now imagine the whole car doing that.
Click to expand...

Ditto that. I was like wtf when I was driving down the mountain and my whole car started shaking. When I was on the freeway, it still vibrated a little, but not as bad. I wonder if that 80-5 mph braking would work on OEM brakes. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try before getting it checked with the mechanics. Rotor problems aren't covered by the warranty, right?
 
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