John = insanity + 200% dedication + creativity + quality 
turbocad's custom fx
- Thread starter turbocad6
- Start date
update, I spent the last few weeks trying to come up with a good way of salvaging this header weld job, tried several hones & a few different things, talked to everyone including extrude hone & the bottom line conclusion I've come up to is there just no good. a whole lot of work wasted because of improper welding.
I have no choice but to redo them. I got so disgusted with these fucked up headers that I talked to a local buddy at americanracingheaders in LI & actually considered just having him build me a set for a bit, but the only way he'll do it is he wants the whole fx & start over from scratch, not try to just copy what I already have, because he would do it all mandrel bent piping. he also doesn't think equal length is necessary & wants to build them his way which would not be equal length. it would wind up costing me ~$3,500 & he couldn't even take the fx in till some time in July. he won't do it in 321ss either, just 16ga 304ss.
I decided I'm not going to give up & just let him do it. first of all because the $ spent there could pay for the haltech & the injectors, etc... it would just destroy my budget completely, & second of all if I was really going to do that I'd want it exactly the way I want it, which would be equal length & at least 321. in the end I really think my header design is better & more efficient than what I'd wind up getting for $3,500 from him & mine would also last much longer than mandrel bent 16ga 304... IF it was actually welded right in the first place that is....
so I'll have to reorder a bunch of stainless material & start over, reduplicate the piping I already did & then have the "professionally" welded again, but this time with a real professional welder
since this episode I've asked around & found 2 serious candidates to weld these for me this time. the first is an aircraft technician, worked for many years for Fairchild & now has his own welding business at an airfield where he is FAA certified & normally does small aircraft turbo manifolds... there is no question I think as to him being qualified to do this job right. he says the real right way is he applies flux inside the welds first, THEN he also welds them in an argon filled chamber. the insides of the welds are supposedly as beautiful as the outside & of course there is absolutely no slag or sugaring of the welds at all. a true quality job. only thing I'm afraid of is how crazy expensive it might be for him to do it??
second alternative is, I've also found a supposedly real pro race car builder who also has a rep for awesome welds, he will back purge & he claims the same high quality welds in & out too, he will be somewhat affordable for just the welding, maybe $4-500 to weld them all up if even that much which is about what it should cost really I think to just weld them up after all the fabrication work is done & tacked in place...
totally sucks that I already did all this work, frigging headers took me 2 full weeks labor to build, it came out awesome, but then a bad weld job just destroyed everything... that's why I hate having to rely on anyone else to do any work on my stuff :mad.:
I'm hoping to be able to retain the whole collector & head of the headers & just have to redo the tube work, that's where the real problem of weak welds & internal contamination is, the collectors were at least 1/2 the total work & since I welded all the internal stuff myself in the collectors & then smoothed & polished it before closing them up there really fine. the rest of the collector is open & accessible to clean any slag from the one weld he did do on a seem so there really ok, only the 6 curved pipes will need to be redone. I'll have to build a jig to be able to retain exact turbo placement & alignment... still gonna be a lot of work... sucks that this shouldn't even be an issue at this point, I do still have a lot of other things that need to be done but this has just stopped everything else right now. just can't continue to the next step when the current step is just a failure... sucks sucks sucks, I want to drive my fx again
there are a lot of stories of many guys ruining turbo's with improper welding jobs all over the web. it really doesn't pay to not do it right in the first place. Even a little bit of contamination can damage the turbo impeller just a little even, what wouldn't look like a lot of damage, BUT the problem is, even small damage will knock it out of precise balance, & once it's out of balance it will eventually ruin the bearing & then the impeller & housing too... the headers need to be surgically clean & nothing should ever have any chance of breaking away flying into the turbo.
I have no choice but to redo them. I got so disgusted with these fucked up headers that I talked to a local buddy at americanracingheaders in LI & actually considered just having him build me a set for a bit, but the only way he'll do it is he wants the whole fx & start over from scratch, not try to just copy what I already have, because he would do it all mandrel bent piping. he also doesn't think equal length is necessary & wants to build them his way which would not be equal length. it would wind up costing me ~$3,500 & he couldn't even take the fx in till some time in July. he won't do it in 321ss either, just 16ga 304ss.
I decided I'm not going to give up & just let him do it. first of all because the $ spent there could pay for the haltech & the injectors, etc... it would just destroy my budget completely, & second of all if I was really going to do that I'd want it exactly the way I want it, which would be equal length & at least 321. in the end I really think my header design is better & more efficient than what I'd wind up getting for $3,500 from him & mine would also last much longer than mandrel bent 16ga 304... IF it was actually welded right in the first place that is....
so I'll have to reorder a bunch of stainless material & start over, reduplicate the piping I already did & then have the "professionally" welded again, but this time with a real professional welder
since this episode I've asked around & found 2 serious candidates to weld these for me this time. the first is an aircraft technician, worked for many years for Fairchild & now has his own welding business at an airfield where he is FAA certified & normally does small aircraft turbo manifolds... there is no question I think as to him being qualified to do this job right. he says the real right way is he applies flux inside the welds first, THEN he also welds them in an argon filled chamber. the insides of the welds are supposedly as beautiful as the outside & of course there is absolutely no slag or sugaring of the welds at all. a true quality job. only thing I'm afraid of is how crazy expensive it might be for him to do it??
second alternative is, I've also found a supposedly real pro race car builder who also has a rep for awesome welds, he will back purge & he claims the same high quality welds in & out too, he will be somewhat affordable for just the welding, maybe $4-500 to weld them all up if even that much which is about what it should cost really I think to just weld them up after all the fabrication work is done & tacked in place...
totally sucks that I already did all this work, frigging headers took me 2 full weeks labor to build, it came out awesome, but then a bad weld job just destroyed everything... that's why I hate having to rely on anyone else to do any work on my stuff :mad.:
I'm hoping to be able to retain the whole collector & head of the headers & just have to redo the tube work, that's where the real problem of weak welds & internal contamination is, the collectors were at least 1/2 the total work & since I welded all the internal stuff myself in the collectors & then smoothed & polished it before closing them up there really fine. the rest of the collector is open & accessible to clean any slag from the one weld he did do on a seem so there really ok, only the 6 curved pipes will need to be redone. I'll have to build a jig to be able to retain exact turbo placement & alignment... still gonna be a lot of work... sucks that this shouldn't even be an issue at this point, I do still have a lot of other things that need to be done but this has just stopped everything else right now. just can't continue to the next step when the current step is just a failure... sucks sucks sucks, I want to drive my fx again
there are a lot of stories of many guys ruining turbo's with improper welding jobs all over the web. it really doesn't pay to not do it right in the first place. Even a little bit of contamination can damage the turbo impeller just a little even, what wouldn't look like a lot of damage, BUT the problem is, even small damage will knock it out of precise balance, & once it's out of balance it will eventually ruin the bearing & then the impeller & housing too... the headers need to be surgically clean & nothing should ever have any chance of breaking away flying into the turbo.
Hate to hear that. Hope your new welder will do the quality job you are looking for.
I guess you cant cut the existing header and clean/re-weld ? (it will be shorter?)
I hope you a speedy recover :balanced:
I hope you a speedy recover :balanced:
thought about cutting them apart, cleaning them out, then re welding them up... problem is it will change the turbo position by the width of the cuts.. second & bigger problem is, since the welds weren't back purged the welds are not as strong as they should be, so all this effort would still leave these very susceptible to cracking at the welds too... I can't see trying to do a "fix" when I know the end results would still not be as good as it could be, seems like a waste of time at that point...
far as the guy who did these for me, he is a friend for a real long time & I don't really want to ruin a friendship over something like this. I will at some point mention it to him, but the way I see it is this is where I am now & this is what I have to deal with now, all the complaining in the world isn't going to change that, so I'm really not even looking so much at woulda coulda shoulda, it's done, lesson learned & that's that. the truth is he really is a pro at race car fabrication, he builds frames & cages on 6 & 7 second cars even, but just guess he doesn't even know better when it comes to actual turbo manifolds... had this weld job been done on a normal race car header it wouldn't even be much of a problem really, this problem is only specifically because of the turbo's...
I don't like pointing fingers of blame at anyone else & I'm the kind of person that just always blames myself primarily... even here I do blame myself... I should have known better & should have had a turbo specialist do this job for me rather than just a race car fabricator I guess.... my research did teach me that back purging was considered necessary but I just didn't realize before hand just how important it really was. I just assumed if it really was such a big deal then this guy would know about it... my fault for making assumptions I guess...
what's done is done, gotta just move forward & just chalk it up as a valuable lesson learned. "anything worth doing is worth doing right", always knew this & always try to build by this rule, but this experience has also taught me that the extension to that rule is" anything worth doing is worth doing right, & be sure that you actually know enough to be able to know the right way to begin with"... hell, hind sight is always 20/20...
& yeah doc, there are a few slight tweeks that I will make that will actually make the new design a little better than the first too, mainly to the top tube, first time I think I did have them a bit too close to the valve covers, especially the right side & this time I will adjust them for a bit more clearance there so they will be a little better than they are now in that area at least
far as the guy who did these for me, he is a friend for a real long time & I don't really want to ruin a friendship over something like this. I will at some point mention it to him, but the way I see it is this is where I am now & this is what I have to deal with now, all the complaining in the world isn't going to change that, so I'm really not even looking so much at woulda coulda shoulda, it's done, lesson learned & that's that. the truth is he really is a pro at race car fabrication, he builds frames & cages on 6 & 7 second cars even, but just guess he doesn't even know better when it comes to actual turbo manifolds... had this weld job been done on a normal race car header it wouldn't even be much of a problem really, this problem is only specifically because of the turbo's...
I don't like pointing fingers of blame at anyone else & I'm the kind of person that just always blames myself primarily... even here I do blame myself... I should have known better & should have had a turbo specialist do this job for me rather than just a race car fabricator I guess.... my research did teach me that back purging was considered necessary but I just didn't realize before hand just how important it really was. I just assumed if it really was such a big deal then this guy would know about it... my fault for making assumptions I guess...
what's done is done, gotta just move forward & just chalk it up as a valuable lesson learned. "anything worth doing is worth doing right", always knew this & always try to build by this rule, but this experience has also taught me that the extension to that rule is" anything worth doing is worth doing right, & be sure that you actually know enough to be able to know the right way to begin with"... hell, hind sight is always 20/20...
& yeah doc, there are a few slight tweeks that I will make that will actually make the new design a little better than the first too, mainly to the top tube, first time I think I did have them a bit too close to the valve covers, especially the right side & this time I will adjust them for a bit more clearance there so they will be a little better than they are now in that area at least
That's a harsh/costly lesson here, but glad to hear you're keeping to ur word of doing things right!
In the end you'll be better off, plus now you actually have some templates to guide you
And should you redo this conversion for a customer, you'll have readily available headers to help you position everything up again!
Keep it up and keep posting on here! Loving the dedication you've put towards this build.
In the end you'll be better off, plus now you actually have some templates to guide you
And should you redo this conversion for a customer, you'll have readily available headers to help you position everything up again!
Keep it up and keep posting on here! Loving the dedication you've put towards this build.
Ohhh John.....your just to much of a perfectionist haha...!! As everything i'm certain you will find a solution......as long as you do it before august........goes Ray is coming to NY again this year and he want to feel that power........!! So Common........buddy you can do this :tonguey:
So I just came across this:
http://www.icengineworks.com/icewfeatures.htm
If you plan on doing any future build, I would recommend you get a set and build your headers lego style!
Kinda like this:
http://www.icengineworks.com/icewfeatures.htm
If you plan on doing any future build, I would recommend you get a set and build your headers lego style!
Kinda like this:
man, when the fx was in the shop work moved along nicely, once she came out then I got real busy at the shop & with the headers being a brick wall everything just kinda lagged a bit. I finally ordered all the stainless to redo the headers, built jigs for positioning so I can recreate these headers without all the trial & test fitting that it originally took to build these. I also built a clamping/cutting jig & set up an adjustable angle miter saw with a metal cutting blade to try & do all this fabrication easier than the first time around, doing it on the 14" chop saw was a bitch & cuts were not precise, then took a lot of grinding & straightening to get the angles right, hopefully this new equipment will make this a little less pain.
those Lego style blocks are cool but my pipework is pretty simple & figuring out the angles wasn't as much problem as actually cutting all the angles. those would be a bigger help on a more complex design I think.
this is what will be completely replaced:
I decided since I'm going to redo these to be right that I'm also going to use the stillen head flanges on the redo, there much thicker & there also non magnetic 304 stainless instead of the original thinner steel ones I used the first time
now just a matter of turning that pile of ss elbows into new pipework to connect the header collector heads to the new flanges... sounds easy enough
I've also been collecting much of the rest of the stuff I need to finish this, got the haltech & I got a custom dual in tank fuel pump setup & a set of deatschworks 800cc injectors.. custom fuel return system, the fuel pump assy is for a 350z so I need to lengthen it a bit, fx tank is taller. basically I'm building the management, turbo & fuel system to comfortably support 700hp. may never see boost levels high enough to reach that but the turbos & fuel system capacity will be enough to support that.
those Lego style blocks are cool but my pipework is pretty simple & figuring out the angles wasn't as much problem as actually cutting all the angles. those would be a bigger help on a more complex design I think.
this is what will be completely replaced:
I decided since I'm going to redo these to be right that I'm also going to use the stillen head flanges on the redo, there much thicker & there also non magnetic 304 stainless instead of the original thinner steel ones I used the first time
now just a matter of turning that pile of ss elbows into new pipework to connect the header collector heads to the new flanges... sounds easy enough
I've also been collecting much of the rest of the stuff I need to finish this, got the haltech & I got a custom dual in tank fuel pump setup & a set of deatschworks 800cc injectors.. custom fuel return system, the fuel pump assy is for a 350z so I need to lengthen it a bit, fx tank is taller. basically I'm building the management, turbo & fuel system to comfortably support 700hp. may never see boost levels high enough to reach that but the turbos & fuel system capacity will be enough to support that.
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you used the nice oven pans lol... first the pots now the pans , your wife might wonder why the kitchen has so much room now lol
good to see progress keep up the good work
good to see progress
keep up the good workGlad to see it moving along well.
Do you plan to upgrade the G37x tranny to take the 700hp?
Do you plan to upgrade the G37x tranny to take the 700hp?
With two more wings, that FX can fly. :wink (2):
