Audiocontrol Epicenter

jbaker1121

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hey all, as a continuation of this thread because it started to go off topic:
///4736
about getting more out of the stock BOSE subs....
using the epicenter or the cheaper version.....

Epicenter....(shown here)
http://www.audiocontrol.com/t34/524...The-Epicenter-Bass-Restoration-Processor.html

After a short talk with turbocad (John)
i decided to purchase an Epicenter and it should be in next week....
apparently (explained in more detail int he original thread) this epicenter will help the stock BOSE subs meet their true potential in Bass output....
this is just a thread more specific for the Epicenter...:wub:
 
yeah, def worth adding to an aftermarket sub, what's it's really intended for...

think of it as nitrous for your bass, if you like bass & want more of it at times & with certain material, the epicenter delivers... it'll make even a pepsi comercial hit hard :tongue:
 
i'm definitely not a bass-head by any means, but there are times when i want certain songs to bang harder, and they just dont. so this will solve my problems? do i wire in to just the sub, or does it go in before the first amplifier?
 
Turbo for gchristopher's case...

shouldn't he try the Alpine Imprint?

I thought the Alpine iDA-X001 had a conversion in it to try and get back some of the compression, and make the music sound more full? The imprint should help clean up your whole stage front and rear.
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_500PXAH100/Alpine-PXA-H100-IMPRINT-Audio-Processor.html?tp=116
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_500KTXH100/Alpine-KTX-H100.html?tp=116

But if you feel after playing your mp3's a loss of bass, the epicenter will work for you to. Personally I would try the imprint first, since it helps with compression, and opens up your boston's a little more too. Overall you'll get better sound, but if you only want more bass get the epicenter.

As for hooking it up, it has to be hooked up before the first amplifier. I dont know how your running your system. Are you running both the stock hu and the alpine going into the bose amp? or do you have an aftermarket? If your only running the alpine, there should be a 3 pre-outs in the back of the unit. Connect one of these with epicenter, and then go straight into the sub. If you are running HU and Alpine into the bose..then refer to my diagram on the other thread. You just need to find out which are neg and pos inputs to the bose amp x2.
 
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wow that is pretty slick, that little alpine unit. you buy a kit that has a mic so the program car hear what you hear, then tunes accordingly thats nice.

i guess i'm just kind of playing devils advocate. i doubt i'll be buying any of this stuff right now though. maybe in the future when all my visual and performance mods are done. then i'll come back and revisit the system. its jsut fine for now, i was just curious about this epicenter unit.
 
I don't know much about the imprint, but I do have another system car that is built around an alpine d300 & it has a technology similar to what the imprint does... it is pretty cool & it does open up the dynamic range of something as compressed as an mp3 or satillite radio, but it to is not an epicenter & does not do the same thing... it is a nice processing for compressed sources & when used in moderation it does help, too much & it sounds overprocessed though...




I will put up some info later about the install, but in a nutshell, the epicenter needs to be feed a full range signal... it is a bass restoration processor & it needs to see the full frequency range so it can estimate where the missing bass is by seeing the harmonics of the missing or dampened bass hit.....

every sound has harmonics, basically for every doubling of the freq there is a harmonic soud that is about 6db down from the fundimental tone... in simple terms think of this as a ripple effect like if you threw a stone into water. now imagine if the center part of where a stone was thrown into the water was erased, photoshopped out, but, you can still see the outer perimeter & the ripples that the stone caused... this would be enough information to be able to estimate where the stone hit the water & where the ripples should have been that are not visable... in simple terms, if the stone hitting the water was erased, the epicenter will restore it, by the same token, if the stone throw even is still visable, the epicenter will still add to it, make it more visable & enhanced... this is just a simple anology but is a way to illustrate what the epicenter does...

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I'm going to do my best to not get too technical or type out huge text that is going to just loose everyone, but there is just so much to sound quality & music & the reproduction of sound that it may be hard for me to restrain myself. if you think you've seen me get technical before, you ain't seen nothin yet. when it comes to car audio I am a big time SQ freek, big time audiophile. I've been involved in iasca competition many moons ago & have built my fair share of competition cars, even had my own car stereo shop many years ago... if I start to go way overboard then someone let me know please, but there is just so much to know to really understand audio reproduction in a car....

in simple terms, the epicenter will wake up your bass like nothing else, BUT too much processing can also kill it & make it sound artificial & over processed... in moderation though the epicenter is an awesome tool.... it does not replace anything else & nothing else replaces it, there are many different types of processing & the epicenter does not do everything, but it does enhance bass...
 
i'm excited. I spoke to JOhnmax over at the org and he said the instlal of the epicenter and the sotck system should be pretty straightforward and show awesome results
 
OK, quick primer...

from a sound quality point of view, one of the worse things about the stock Bose system is probably something that many don't even realize...

when were talking about sound quality, the criteria that makes up quality audio reproduction can be stated as sound stage, imaging, frequency response, tonal accuracy, etc.... the idea is to be able to replay a recording as it was recorded & as it was intended to be listened to. if you close your eyes in a real competition car, you should hear the performance like it was happening in front of you, it should sound like your up front & center at a concert, the performance is happening in front of you, the drummer is further back than the vocalist & maybe off to the left, everything should have a definite place that it originates, & should sound real, lofty goals for any system, but the closer you can get to this the more quality of sound you'll have

now tonal accuracy & frequency response there is only so much your going to do with the stock Bose... if you really want an audiophile quality system then the stock bose needs a whole lot of help, really everything needs to be replaced.... but, if it at least had half way decent imaging & sound stage it might not be too annoying to listen too at least...

to me, the biggest deficiency in the stock system is there is no sound stage, there is no imaging.. it is just a mass of noise coming from all over, it is so annoying to me that I hardly ever listen to it, the only music I have available to me in my fx is my stillen headers & exhaust, cause what comes out of the stock bose is not music:tongue:. to have any kind of sound stage & imaging you'll need to turn the rear speakers all the way off, fade it all the way to the front, most competition cars either have no rear speakers, or if it does, they will be turned way down & delayed to just add fill, the rears should just play what would be the sound that would bounce off the rear wall at a concert if rears are used at all, the stage itself should be in front of you, if you close your eyes you should hear the performance like it was in front of you, you should be able to locate precisely where the singer is in relation to the drummer, in relation to the sax player, etc... you should be able to, with your eyes closed, point to exactly where you hear the singers vocals coming from, not there or there, but right there.. this is called pin point accuracy & in a good system, you should have a nice wide fairly accurate deep sound stage, it should not sound muddy or like the vocals & everything else are just coming from all around you, if you don't know any better than this might be what you expect to hear & have become accustomed too, but it is far from correct & far from sound quality...

one problem is that our sub woofer is referenced to the rear speakers, big flaw on Bose' part, because if you turn the rears down to clean up the stage, you also drop all lower frequency response out of the picture, you loose the sub completely... a very sad thing to listen to when your looking to listen to music....

by just adding an epicenter & referencing it off of the front stage drivers, that alone would be a huge improvement in sound quality, just because you'd now have the ability to turn the rear speakers all the way down & still listen to your front stage while also still having the lower frequencies played by the sub... this alone, even if you never turned the epicenter on or never used it's restoration circuit, will be a huge improvement in the sound stage & imaging... enough to maybe make it bearable to listen to at least...

........
 
Very Informative response as usual Turbo. I 100% agree! I'm an SQ guy myself, but never competed or took it as serious as you though...

Your response here is exactly why I have my Rainbow Germanium's in a custom install in the front doors of my other car. No rear speakers at all. Now-a-days, getting into a car that has rear speakers going full blast just sounds horrible to me. In the FX, I use a lot of fader to the front, but like you said, you lose bass....and that horrible center channel speaker in our cars throws everything off too.
 
my center channel speaker has been unplugged since day one :smile:

it's amazing, once you learn what it should sound like, how horrible many systems really are... it's also amazing what some people think sounds good. the problem with really becoming educated & learning what a true audiophile system sounds like is that you will be ruined for life... what some people can listen too & think sounds good can be horrible enough that you just want to turn it off...

I've had friends who thought there stuff sounded good, thought they had a system, but, after spending 1/2 hour in a real competition quality car & learning what it could & should sound like, only after that did they go back to there car & realize what crap they actually had... & I'm talking guys who have dropped 6 7 & 8k or more on a system... sure the amps look great & the chrome subs look cool lit by neon, but if it sounds like garbage what good is it...

a great sound system can & still does send shivers up my spine... theres nothing like listening to some great music on a great system, I'd say it's better than sex but it really depends what you happen to be in the mood for at the time, sometimes sex is better :tongue:

I never screwed with the stock Bose cause I'm an all or nothing kinda guy, for me to screw with the Bose is for me to rip it out, but, for the sake of this thread, & because I am not ready to dive head first into a competition system, here well try to see how much we can improve the bose... if I can make it at least not too annoying to even listen to then I'd say that would be success with this little project....
 
I always enjoy reading your short stories aka responses haha.

looking forward to trying out the epicenter
 
I'd have to agree with John on everything for the most part. SQ systems are different from most competetion system though. most competetion system are design for SPL, low resinating bass responses reflected off of the intererior of the vehicle to the front. How loud those low HZ resonate off the front glass. SQ is though a matter of opinion, and equipment managed by budget. equipment is important, from the speaker wires , to power lines, rca, to amps etc...each component plays a special part. and each piece of equipment has it own characteristics. making sure you have the correct size speakers to fit in each location has apart. having to match your the correct power to get the exact tonal sound you're looking for also has its part. example from experience MB Quartz is an excellent speaker during its time, for me anyway. it had great mid range sound, and a pretty decent tweeter. at increased volume and load MB quartz lost some of it smooth midrange sound and the tweeters became extremely bright and distorted. does that say the speaker is bad. or was it the power matched to the particular amp I had, or the characteristics of the speaker. I replaced the Alpine amp with a phoenix gold amp. I found it to be a little better but still lost some of it tonal qualities under load. what that meant for me was that the speaker had its own characteristics. So based on that I decide to look more into matchin my power consumution and output as close as I could, and find the speaker that had consistant characteristics.

Like John said ealrier when listening to sound, close your eyes and listen to what you are hearing. listen to distinct sounds, and tones. are the recording you listen to clean, muddy, or muffled sounding; are they bright and loud, do certain speakers hurt your ears when listening to the same type of music on different components. find the most consist sound quality for what your ears because some of you could be a lil deaf. make sure the audiophile you are listening to is clear, so when listening to music on different components you'll be able to pick up the characteristic of each component you hear. that will help you make your choice. then find out the output and try to find the amp best match to do so. just becasue you see big numbers doesn't always equal great sound. check HZ level ranges, max output, and RMS output. stability of amp load ohms, etc...are you runnning single or dual voice coils on subs etc... what the air volume requirements for your speaker to get the most and best out of them, the list goes on. in the end you have to find what works for you, what fits into you budget and what sounds consistant. planing, and research will never steer you wrong if going for aftermarket sound and having someone like John to get help is never bad either.

Sorry for the run on and getting off topic, I just wanted to add my two cent in regards to SQ, and what to look for, or to just give you another idea before making choices on sound systems.
 
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SPL cars are not really designed for music, there all about moving air & making the loudest burp & hitting the highest reading on the spl meter... I've never been much of a fan of SPL cars, there it's all about mega power & mega loud noise... but there are def competition cars that are 100% based on & centered around SQ with very little regard to just high SPL...

your right, different equipment will have slightly different sound, & almost nothing is truly "perfect". add to that that "perfect" can be slightly subjective & slightly based on opinion too, judging is for the most part subjective & opinionated too, but, there are many aspects of quality sound that is at least universally agreed upon as what's good & what's bad. before anything can hope to be perfect it has to at least be good...

I'm talking about stuff like staging & imaging, full spectrum coverage, tonal balance etc... these are things that are pretty much universally agreed upon as far as what's good & what's bad...

no system can be good if there are holes in the frequency spectrum, no system can be good if the center image & staging is totally undefined & all over the place, or has some nasty spikes at a certain freq... I'm not talking about "perfect" as that is just not going to even come close with the stock Bose in it's current configuration, it just sounds like cardboard...


I'm not talking about perfect or even great when I talk about modifying the Bose, I'm more talking about trying to get it to half way reasonably decent... just enough to be good :tongue:

I do have the idea of later adding a real system to my fx, but, that is a pretty big job & will take quite a bit of downtime & a whole lot of work, I've got some pretty high ambitions for that system too. I'll do it as a PC based system, starting with an apogee mini DAC fed bit perfect from the PC into a DBX driverack 480 that I have put aside just for this system, probably use my McIntosh amps,nd-8" illusion audio drivers in the doors & illusion audio ch-1 horns, absolutely love the front stage I get with these components in the few cars I've installed them too, insane killer front stage that's hard to beat... huge spl while having awesome sound quality, the horns give you a very equal & long pathlength each side & they play down to like 650hz, fine tuned with 1/3 octave eq there so sweet, sounds so real, pinpoint imaging & nice wide & deep soundstage... :smile:


funny thing is I really have just about everything for this system except the apogee but no time to rip everything apart & dive into it. man, I love my fx but I really do miss having a real system :frown:...
 
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John I feel your pain, taking everything apart, fabricating, testing, and tunning is a lot of work. I'm planning on re-doing my system but every time I think I'm going do so. I remember that it going to involve more then just a day or two. I know all my wiring is in place from my current system but there is so much to do with placement etc... I'm planing on doing a different box but can't until I get a new reporater. there is always something.

Now every time I here someone talk about staging or imaging I always think home systems because it so much more critical at home then in my ride. and I feel you on quality of horns, I know at home I have some older Klipsch speaker which I love, because of how clean, and even the tonal sounds are. I wish I could get that kind of sound and staging in my FX. for that matter if I could afford some high end stuff I'd be buying wilson, or steinway audio equipment but until then I'll just wish, and dream.

Now here is a question on the mac amps, aside from cost. because I can't afford them any way. How do you think the apline PDX series would compere to mcIntosh? which to me I'd consider them the poor man's version of Mcintosh. for the money I really feel these are as stable as you can get, especially for digital equipment that so compact. I mean there are so many new things out today it hard to keep up. but what do you think?
 
ah, those alpines are class d, digital... there pretty new, can't say I've heard them, but class d is usually not thought to be the best at reproducing music, there is a certain warmth & mellow of a true high end mosfet amp that digital kinda squares off. there have been a lot of different attempts at making a class d amp sound more natural, but in general any audiophile would probably say class d is really only good enough for bass, as in the bass region this is less apparent & less of a problem,


personally I'd love to find a digital amp that sounds as good as a high end mosfet, but haven't heard one yet that sounded as warm & natural, theres a certain digital quality that is apparent from every class d amp I've ever heard... class d has a lot going for it, less power consumption, less size, less heat, but at the sacrifice of slightly less sq...

sometimes the latest & greatest technology is not always the best for sound quality, there are a lot of audiophiles that will even go so far as to use tube amplifiers, which are almost the opposite of class d amps... until I hear them I remain reserved & skeptical... I love my McIntosh's, I love the sound of real old school analog mosfet amps, the old school Rockford's, ppi's, Orion's, & even some of the really old school alpines were great amps... many modern amps, especially stuff from even the same companies like Rockford & alpine, even jl, just not the same... now adays stuff like alpine, jl, Rockford & the like, there just average... to get high end is going to be going above the main stream pump them out by the thousands type manufacturers, stuff like audison, etc... but, again, this only matters so much if you can actually hear & appreciate the difference too, & if a slight increase in quality is worth the extra space & power requirements, I'm sure at least a very nice system can be put together with those alpine amps too...
 
this is one of those threads where i have no idea what anybody is talking about haha.

byt he way, did yu put thsoe vids up?
 
Favorite amps- besides Mcintosh

-My absolute favorite amps I ever owned were the old school Soundstream Reference series ! Soundstream just came out with a new reference amp 760.4, they went back to the old school, just sick! (pic is reference 1000)
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old school I loved:
-Zapco
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a/d/s
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Rockford Fosgate:
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-Precision Power Art Series:
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Phoenix Gold- cant forget them, always make great amps.
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-Orion- HCCA was SOOO under rated....I never really saw them used for an SQ set-up... saw them mostly used for SPL.
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