Supercharger and/or twin Turbo for FX37 engine
- Thread starter fx37SupplyEng
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With the first and second gen FX35, the engines are identical within the same model year (rwd->rwd and awd->awd). The difference as Justin said is that the FX engine bay is much larger. While that means more space to work, it also means a few of the brackets will not transfer. Further, the piping will have been designed within the constraints of the smaller G engine bay. Not to say they wont still work in the FX, but they can likely be configured more optimally by utilizing the extra space.
As porkandbeans stated, you'd probably be much better off in the long run having someone knowledgeable build you a custom system using parts (turbo, manifolds, injectors, etc...) that have already been proven on the VQ37. Hacking up a similar kit will likely leave you wanting more in the end, and cost just as much. Might even be cheaper to go custom if you plan it well enough...
IMO, if someone is looking for custom forced induction, a turbo is easier. The options for turbo placement are far greater since all you have to do is run pipes and oil lines to it. Look at the ridiculous STS turbo systems. I always thought it was silly to mount a turbo where the muffler normally is, but apparently it can be done even though you have a ton of excess piping and a less than optimal oil system. If you get an SC, the precision has to be far greater. The SC unit has to be placed in line with the engine so it can be driven. And if any of the pulleys or brackets are off even by a tiny bit, thee will be issues. I had a Stillen SC on my old Maxima that utilized a Vortech blower. That kit was a POS; it was out of alignment right off the bat and had to be shimmed so it wouldn't shred belts. Even after the fixes, belts didn't last very long. The mounting plate they made was off somewhere; and this was on a production kit. I couldn't imagine a custom SC setup being much better. After breaking several belts and being stranded, I put a custom turbo on and called it a day. Making more power on less boost was just a bonus.
I built 3 custom turbo setups in my garage basically and surprisingly they all worked. It was just a matter of running piping and getting stuff to fit. No way I could have built a supercharger setup on my own. So for less complexity, I'd argue for the turbo. Other than GTM, I don't think many shops would even tackle a custom SC application. You'd have to find a shop w/ CNC's for the custom brackets and those machines aren't cheap. The only knock I've heard about GTM is that their pricing is outrageous and it will always take longer than they say to get your car back.
A turbo cannot blow up the motor if the supporting mods are there and the engine management is correct. Sure you can pick the wrong size turbo and get less than optimum results, but if everything else is correct, the motor is fine. Every turbo manufacturer effectively has the same stuff as every other turbo manufacturer. Sure some of them have different turbines and compressors which will optimize performance or efficiency, but in the same size turbo, performance would be similar. You could go bolt a big Holsett from a semi onto a Civic and the Civic would be fine; it would never spool, but it wouldn't blow up. I actually think some of the Civic guys have done this. You could also go bolt a T25 from an old Eclipse onto a V8 Mustang and nothing would blow up. it would boost quickly and have minimal top end, but nothing would blow. Turbochargers are very old technology; very little is revolutionary these days. It's all evolutionary-new turbine design, better bearings, better lubricating system, etc.
Motors blow because shops fabricate stuff wrong or stuff is installed wrong or if the engine management is messed up. I lost the motor in my old car because the shop that installed the Stillen SC messed up the install of the auxillary fuel pump and it didn't turn on. I knew someone that lost a motor because the shop that did their turbo messed up the oil lines and the car lost all oil. But most guys who blow motors on turbo cars simply run too much boost or they have too many miles on the motors for the boost they have. So OP, find a reputable shop and you should be fine.
I built 3 custom turbo setups in my garage basically and surprisingly they all worked. It was just a matter of running piping and getting stuff to fit. No way I could have built a supercharger setup on my own. So for less complexity, I'd argue for the turbo. Other than GTM, I don't think many shops would even tackle a custom SC application. You'd have to find a shop w/ CNC's for the custom brackets and those machines aren't cheap. The only knock I've heard about GTM is that their pricing is outrageous and it will always take longer than they say to get your car back.
A turbo cannot blow up the motor if the supporting mods are there and the engine management is correct. Sure you can pick the wrong size turbo and get less than optimum results, but if everything else is correct, the motor is fine. Every turbo manufacturer effectively has the same stuff as every other turbo manufacturer. Sure some of them have different turbines and compressors which will optimize performance or efficiency, but in the same size turbo, performance would be similar. You could go bolt a big Holsett from a semi onto a Civic and the Civic would be fine; it would never spool, but it wouldn't blow up. I actually think some of the Civic guys have done this. You could also go bolt a T25 from an old Eclipse onto a V8 Mustang and nothing would blow up. it would boost quickly and have minimal top end, but nothing would blow. Turbochargers are very old technology; very little is revolutionary these days. It's all evolutionary-new turbine design, better bearings, better lubricating system, etc.
Motors blow because shops fabricate stuff wrong or stuff is installed wrong or if the engine management is messed up. I lost the motor in my old car because the shop that installed the Stillen SC messed up the install of the auxillary fuel pump and it didn't turn on. I knew someone that lost a motor because the shop that did their turbo messed up the oil lines and the car lost all oil. But most guys who blow motors on turbo cars simply run too much boost or they have too many miles on the motors for the boost they have. So OP, find a reputable shop and you should be fine.
Justins311
Member
- Car
- 2009 FX35
I wholeheartedly agree with everything shadow191 wrote. ANYBODY can build a turbo system if they have fabrication skills and machines at their disposal. Build it, pressureize it, if it leaks plug the hole. The "mystery" surrounding turbo system is in the intracacies of the turbo internals; not in the device itself.
One more word on that; VTN has been the most signficant improvement in turbo efficiency since they were invented hundreds of years ago. Varying the vane dependent on RPM is the same principle as varying the intake runner length or cam duration/lift in the valvetrain dependent on RPM. Those of you would know this as VTEC, YO!
But on turbos it makes a night and day improvement where as VTEC/VVTL/etc is an incremental improvement. Gone are the days of multiple turbo systems being used to ramp up intake pressure - i.e. the "big semi turbo on a civic" problem. That worked, but only if you either revved it out to 8k rpm to spool it (and you can do that, its how civics run 9 second quarters and have 1000hp - you just can't drive the car anywhere but in a striaght line at full throttle) OR if you used a small turbo to build up exhaust pressure and RPM then switched to the large turbo (a'la twin turbo). VTN allows you a small, medium and full size turbo (effictively) in one unit.
So short of being able to afford a custom variable turbine turbo, a centifigal supercharger is a more economic route. In reality I contend SC based systems are LESS problematic and LESS complex, but yes, it does take more skill to implement one due to belt positioning and length, etc.
Your best and least expensive route is to go to a fab shop and bring them a G37 turbo kit from GTM or anybody else and have them adapt it. I have done this many times and its very straightforward, especially going from a cramped (g37) bay to an expansive one (FX37).
I refrained from arguing with piddlediddle up there anymore; he made it clear he has no experience installing turbos on non FI cars. OP and anybody else trying to learn from this thread, you can either trust folks like Shadow191 and I who have done this before, or trust a politician who wants to win an argument at all costs, including pretending to agree with you and in the same paragraph attempting to belittle and discredit you. Neither of which adds to the discussion at hand; forced induction on an FX. Sorry folks, not here to make friends, this aint facebook. Here to talk cars and spread knowledge and pick some up myself. This IS a car message board. Your choice but please dont go spend $30k reinventing the wheel when there are already fine turbo kits on the market that will 99% fit our cars!
Justins311
Member
- Car
- 2009 FX35
aww, cute, you guys really got each others backs! I wish I had a mod to follow me around and make sure I got the last word in too. How satisfying.
If you really wanted to let it drop you wouldn't respond. Lightbulb.
Justins311
Member
- Car
- 2009 FX35
Comedic effort. I like it.
So, back on topic:
Justin, why would you recommend a turbo kit for a similar car over buying the core components from the same kit (turbo, injectors, manifolds, etc...) and paying a shop to build the piping? Seems like a waste of money and materials to modify a kit...
So, back on topic:
Justin, why would you recommend a turbo kit for a similar car over buying the core components from the same kit (turbo, injectors, manifolds, etc...) and paying a shop to build the piping? Seems like a waste of money and materials to modify a kit...
Justins311
Member
- Car
- 2009 FX35
Economies of scale. For every FX kit sold there would be 500 G37 kits sold. So lets say they made 10,000 G37 manifold sets - they would prototype them and then have them made in China, then the chinese would copy them and sell them on fleabay for 1/2 price.
There is no way an FX part would ever get mass produced due to the rarity of the vehicle on top of the rarity of the owner who wants to boost it. Therefore it will always be cheaper to buy a mass produced product and modify it.
The turbos are identical (represent approx 30% of the cost of a turbo kit)
The wastegates are identical (represent approx 15% of the cost of a turbo kit)
The silicone couplers are identical (represent approx 10% of the cost of a turbo kit)
The worm gear clamps are identical (represent approx 10% of the cost of a turbo kit)
The vacuum hoses and fittings are identical
The only items that COULD vary are the manifolds (I HIGHLY doubt that), the intercooler core (and running the G37 version would be just as effective for 90% of users, only perhaps 1-2whp gained by going bigger) and maybe half of the pipes could change.
But most importantly, I've taken kits from other cars and modified them to fit a slightly different model. Our shop has also done one-off custom builds for customers who want it. Custom builds are always without question more expensive.
Just case in point, if you want to buy some aluminum pipe stock for intercooler piping it will run you about $20 per pipe. To buy 10 pipes would cost you about 200 bucks. Then you have to either pay somebody to bead roll it, or buy a bead roller ($50-$100). Then you have to buy couplers ($100). Then you have to buy clamps ($100).
ORRRR
You can go on ebay to a mass produced kit such as a honda intercooler, buy all of it for about 1/3 the cost, and cut and modify the pipes to fit your vehicle. I have done this with probably 20 intercooler setups for various cars.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-5-INCH-AL...Parts_Accessories&hash=item20c202b2ff&vxp=mtr
There is no way an FX part would ever get mass produced due to the rarity of the vehicle on top of the rarity of the owner who wants to boost it. Therefore it will always be cheaper to buy a mass produced product and modify it.
The turbos are identical (represent approx 30% of the cost of a turbo kit)
The wastegates are identical (represent approx 15% of the cost of a turbo kit)
The silicone couplers are identical (represent approx 10% of the cost of a turbo kit)
The worm gear clamps are identical (represent approx 10% of the cost of a turbo kit)
The vacuum hoses and fittings are identical
The only items that COULD vary are the manifolds (I HIGHLY doubt that), the intercooler core (and running the G37 version would be just as effective for 90% of users, only perhaps 1-2whp gained by going bigger) and maybe half of the pipes could change.
But most importantly, I've taken kits from other cars and modified them to fit a slightly different model. Our shop has also done one-off custom builds for customers who want it. Custom builds are always without question more expensive.
Just case in point, if you want to buy some aluminum pipe stock for intercooler piping it will run you about $20 per pipe. To buy 10 pipes would cost you about 200 bucks. Then you have to either pay somebody to bead roll it, or buy a bead roller ($50-$100). Then you have to buy couplers ($100). Then you have to buy clamps ($100).
ORRRR
You can go on ebay to a mass produced kit such as a honda intercooler, buy all of it for about 1/3 the cost, and cut and modify the pipes to fit your vehicle. I have done this with probably 20 intercooler setups for various cars.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-5-INCH-AL...Parts_Accessories&hash=item20c202b2ff&vxp=mtr
wow, justins311, you obviously know a whole lot of technical stuff, I agree with much of everything you've said but man you really need to be a little more tactful and control yourself, being passionate and knowledgeable on a particular subject doesn't make you a superior being. you will always run across those that may not know as much as you, not everyone is as passionate and dedicated to really learning all there is to know nor may they even care too, and yes the majority of those you discuss these subjects with may not have as much of a complete understanding as you, but this is no reason to belittle them and act like a dick.
I agree that it is def most cost effective, straight forward and easiest to start with an existing setup if one is available for the engine/platform, and this is really the best advice as a way to go for most people, especially anyone who is going to have to pay someone else to do it, but on the other hand you should also realize that in many ways this is also a compromise.
one reason an off the shelf kit may be a compromise is because many times, in order to meet a target price point, some inferior parts may be used. yes it's good enough to complete the "package" and produce a complete sell able kit, but in reality a better more expensive component would be a better choice in some places. this is most noticeable in engine management and fuel delivery stuff included with many kits but also carries over to even other smaller items like even clamps and hardware... waste gates, intercoolers, etc... if you wind up throwing away half the components of a kit then it may not be as cost effective
another even bigger way that an off the shelf kit can be a compromise, especially on an fx is that as you know these kits are really not developed with the fx in mind. most if not all of the available off the shelf options for the fx are really based on and built around the smallest and tightest vehicle on this platform which is the Z car... anything they build to fit the Z car will also naturally lend well to the slightly larger G's and yes of course they can also even be fitted with minor modification to the fx, but in order to work within the confines of a car as tight as the Z a lot of compromises must be made in the development of the kit itself. for example many turbo kits will use cast log manifolds and tuck the turbo's down underneath the rear of the motor. cast log manifolds are cheap and easy to mass produce. this placement will require longer twisty charge tubes which contribute to turbo lag and hurt efficiency while the log manifolds will wind up being more of a restriction on the top end and also hurt efficiency compared to say an equal length tubular header. if a kit was developed with the fx in mind it could of course be designed in a way to be much more efficient than a Z car install simply because of the huge amount of additional space the fx has in front of the motor, something that of course the Z could never accommodate. another thing is the intercooler, the ideal intercooler for the fx will be pretty different from what has to be used in the much smaller cars, again as a compromise because of the constraints the kit was developed around, constraints that really don't apply in the same way to the fx.
now even with all of this being said, I'd say that in most cases it still would be the best advice to start with an off the shelf kit anyway, as the increase in efficiency an install may potentially allow utilizing the space available from the fx would probably not be worth the much higher cost of designing and building a one off custom install and all the R&D has already been done, but this does not mean that a much better setup couldn't potentially be designed taking advantage of the additional space the fx affords.
I agree that it is def most cost effective, straight forward and easiest to start with an existing setup if one is available for the engine/platform, and this is really the best advice as a way to go for most people, especially anyone who is going to have to pay someone else to do it, but on the other hand you should also realize that in many ways this is also a compromise.
one reason an off the shelf kit may be a compromise is because many times, in order to meet a target price point, some inferior parts may be used. yes it's good enough to complete the "package" and produce a complete sell able kit, but in reality a better more expensive component would be a better choice in some places. this is most noticeable in engine management and fuel delivery stuff included with many kits but also carries over to even other smaller items like even clamps and hardware... waste gates, intercoolers, etc... if you wind up throwing away half the components of a kit then it may not be as cost effective
another even bigger way that an off the shelf kit can be a compromise, especially on an fx is that as you know these kits are really not developed with the fx in mind. most if not all of the available off the shelf options for the fx are really based on and built around the smallest and tightest vehicle on this platform which is the Z car... anything they build to fit the Z car will also naturally lend well to the slightly larger G's and yes of course they can also even be fitted with minor modification to the fx, but in order to work within the confines of a car as tight as the Z a lot of compromises must be made in the development of the kit itself. for example many turbo kits will use cast log manifolds and tuck the turbo's down underneath the rear of the motor. cast log manifolds are cheap and easy to mass produce. this placement will require longer twisty charge tubes which contribute to turbo lag and hurt efficiency while the log manifolds will wind up being more of a restriction on the top end and also hurt efficiency compared to say an equal length tubular header. if a kit was developed with the fx in mind it could of course be designed in a way to be much more efficient than a Z car install simply because of the huge amount of additional space the fx has in front of the motor, something that of course the Z could never accommodate. another thing is the intercooler, the ideal intercooler for the fx will be pretty different from what has to be used in the much smaller cars, again as a compromise because of the constraints the kit was developed around, constraints that really don't apply in the same way to the fx.
now even with all of this being said, I'd say that in most cases it still would be the best advice to start with an off the shelf kit anyway, as the increase in efficiency an install may potentially allow utilizing the space available from the fx would probably not be worth the much higher cost of designing and building a one off custom install and all the R&D has already been done, but this does not mean that a much better setup couldn't potentially be designed taking advantage of the additional space the fx affords.
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Justins311
Member
- Car
- 2009 FX35
I agree with everything you said, except for the cast manifold. In practice it is not a restriction or inefficiency until WELL north of 500whp. Considering I am not even aware of an FX making 500whp, and certainly not 800whp, and the OP is looking for the easiest route, I would never recommend a $2000 set of equal length sst manifold. But technically yes its more effficient. For your perusal:
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?622850-Manifolds-Tubular-vs-log
As far as my "tact", it is obvious you all will come to the defense of your own members at any cost, and ignore their Mistakes, while pickikg apart any new guy. That is great, you guys are close. If you look back to see why I went on the offensive, look at piddle bodies first message to me. "Monstrosity" he called my help. Second, think for a second you have no idea what he PMd me. You take it at face value. Sarcasm and spite are no way to begin a tactful discussion, attacking somebody's line of work...how many things are wrong with this post? But *Im* the dick #rolleyes. If these is one dick here there's definitely several...one has just been accepted into your cool guy crowd:
Step back and consider that this board only has 7k total members. Most car forums have 100,000+ members. Out of your 7k there are so few technical folks that they deemed fit to give one guy an entire sub forum. Really?!? If you look thru this board you will find no shortage of folks like Peabody willing to take on a technical discussion, but rarely does anybody stop to point out merit less arguments. And when somebody does he is "personally attacking" your 2000 post member who has pretended to have knowledge for so many years you're blinded that maybe he's been full of crap this whole time. you guys are so close knit you can't see the forest for the trees and can't respect people for their differences - even mods start calling names. You bow to things you don't understand and oppress people whose verbiage doesn't fit your mold.
Celebrating ignorance should not be a cultural foundation, message board or not.
Your community will never grow if everybody pounces on somebody who has a different way of looking at things or expressing themselves. There is a reason engineers are usually in a different department than marketing. I would bet this board has a whole lot of members in marketing and PR lol....
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?622850-Manifolds-Tubular-vs-log
As far as my "tact", it is obvious you all will come to the defense of your own members at any cost, and ignore their Mistakes, while pickikg apart any new guy. That is great, you guys are close. If you look back to see why I went on the offensive, look at piddle bodies first message to me. "Monstrosity" he called my help. Second, think for a second you have no idea what he PMd me. You take it at face value. Sarcasm and spite are no way to begin a tactful discussion, attacking somebody's line of work...how many things are wrong with this post? But *Im* the dick #rolleyes. If these is one dick here there's definitely several...one has just been accepted into your cool guy crowd:
pdiddy said:
Step back and consider that this board only has 7k total members. Most car forums have 100,000+ members. Out of your 7k there are so few technical folks that they deemed fit to give one guy an entire sub forum. Really?!? If you look thru this board you will find no shortage of folks like Peabody willing to take on a technical discussion, but rarely does anybody stop to point out merit less arguments. And when somebody does he is "personally attacking" your 2000 post member who has pretended to have knowledge for so many years you're blinded that maybe he's been full of crap this whole time. you guys are so close knit you can't see the forest for the trees and can't respect people for their differences - even mods start calling names. You bow to things you don't understand and oppress people whose verbiage doesn't fit your mold.
Celebrating ignorance should not be a cultural foundation, message board or not.
Your community will never grow if everybody pounces on somebody who has a different way of looking at things or expressing themselves. There is a reason engineers are usually in a different department than marketing. I would bet this board has a whole lot of members in marketing and PR lol....
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Rookie has an '05 w/ north of 600whp I believe. But he's the exception and went all in w/ Cosworth block and 6MT conversion. He's running a modded JWT kit. There's another guy who's working on what's supposed to be an 800whp build, but it's been over a year, so we'll see if it ever gets done. I think he's having custom SS manifolds built.
Keep in mind, the forum is very small as you said. So everyone sort of knows each other and if you criticize one even mildly, someone will probably jump to their defense. On most other forums you can say some pretty nasty things to people and it's not an issue; here it definitely will be. It's like comparing a small town in Alabama to NYC; there's definitely a good old boys club and not the anonymity you might find on other boards. I've been here over 3 years and don't get most of the inside jokes, but I don't live on forums either so it's not my thing. There's not a whole lot of people who will push the limits on their FX. As you said, with only 7k members vs. 100K, the sample is going to be much smaller. So people will get super excited about mods that might be no big deal to any other platform. This place is never going to be as big as the Z forums, or BMW forums, or Honda forums. So the amount of new stuff will be much more limited and people are more likely to socialize.
Keep in mind, the forum is very small as you said. So everyone sort of knows each other and if you criticize one even mildly, someone will probably jump to their defense. On most other forums you can say some pretty nasty things to people and it's not an issue; here it definitely will be. It's like comparing a small town in Alabama to NYC; there's definitely a good old boys club and not the anonymity you might find on other boards. I've been here over 3 years and don't get most of the inside jokes, but I don't live on forums either so it's not my thing. There's not a whole lot of people who will push the limits on their FX. As you said, with only 7k members vs. 100K, the sample is going to be much smaller. So people will get super excited about mods that might be no big deal to any other platform. This place is never going to be as big as the Z forums, or BMW forums, or Honda forums. So the amount of new stuff will be much more limited and people are more likely to socialize.
lol, everyone has some good points in their argument. however, since it's a new fx, one good option is going to the dealership to find out if anything is available that won't void the warranty.
if or when the factory warranty is no longer a factor, then talk to your local performance shops specializing in nissan/infiniti for some options. keep it simple with a shortblock, a bolt-on blower and a conservative tune or otherwise your vehicle will spend more time in the shop than on the road.
if or when the factory warranty is no longer a factor, then talk to your local performance shops specializing in nissan/infiniti for some options. keep it simple with a shortblock, a bolt-on blower and a conservative tune or otherwise your vehicle will spend more time in the shop than on the road.
- Car
- 2012 Nissan Maxima SV
- Name
- Joey
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that our community will grow.
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Justins311
Member
- Car
- 2009 FX35
Wow, I had no idea anybody was shooting for 800 in an FX platform. Not sure the point but then again whats the point of 800hp anywhere lol. You're right, I should have specified 2nd gens per the topic at hand. The HR motor is still too 'new' (yes I know its a few years old, but its not a DE, RB, 2JZ or F22) to have serious aftermarket support, much less the FX37. The DE motor has gobs of stuff available for it - any combo of SC/Turbo/TT you can shake a stick at, and the motor is EASILY buildable and tunable. My friend Vince runs the fab shop at SP in chicago. If you have an 08 or older with the DE motor, they could whip you up any system you want, and probably pretty affordably. They run AEM EMS's in parallel with the stock ECU so that the AEM only controls the fuel and ignition. Its pretty easy to mod. The HR, OTOH, I have heard, is not so user friendly:
http://www.spracingonline.com/
The HR, on the other hand, is still under warranty for most/many and that means still $$$ to mod. Hence why GTM makes a killing off selling $20,000 turbo kits to unwitting speedfreaks :p
Justins311
Member
- Car
- 2009 FX35
There isn't. Infiniti dealers are scared when I bring my car in. And it only has coilovers, exhaust, and some electronics. I literally had one try to deny warranty becuase I had factory DVD headrests. He was SURE they were aftermarket and even made me turn them on and show them the Infiniti logo. Morons. They would NEVER sell something performance oriented like forced induction, like Toyota or Honda will, unfortunately. They just dont have the market.
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