qx70 not starting

Blkinfi13

Member
Car
Qx70s 2017
Name
Robi
There is a gremlin at work under my hood. I started the car drove to home depot, turned the car off and just got out of the car when i got a work call about an issue so had to come right back, started the car and click -- dead.
Got a portable jump starter and moment jump starter touched the battery, car ready to start and starts fine.
Later in the day drove to autozone and had battery and alternator tested and fine.
I did a ground test on the car with a multimeter and everything i tested came out fine.
Now this behaviour seems to happen quite frequently, have gotten into the habit of carrying a portable jump starter with me.
This started after the dealership changed my ignition wires, they said they only changed ignition and this problem was not caused by them, but they will gladly troubleshoot it for me, they charged me and could not find any issue, suspected something with wiring harness but said not sure.
Anyone who has any idea or similar issue, or is it going to be another unanswered thread bcos its too complicated for anyone to comprehend the issue- sorry if i am sounding frustrated.
 
Hi! It's a bit of an odd issue but let's see if we can narrow it down. I'm going to ask a set of questions and apologies if these are redundant but it's just to ensure I understand the issue correctly. The smallest detail can result in different scenarios that are occurring.

1. When you stated "started the car and click -- dead", do you mean... (pick and modify any of the below answers):
A) you were able to start the car (engine running) but it suddenly died and all power went out as in no power to anything?
B) you were able to start the car (engine running) but it suddenly died but there was not enough power to start it again?
C) you were not able to start the car and the starter just "clicked" because it felt like there was not enough power to crank the starter?

2. You mentioned the dealership changed the ignition wires....did you mean the ignition coils and/or spark plugs or the wire harness in the engine bay? I only ask because there are no ignition wires on the QX70.

3. Does this scenario usually happen after the car has been driven? or anytime regardless if the engine has been cooled down completely?

4. How many miles does the car have?

5. When you put the jump starter on the battery, does the car start as if there's much more power to the starter than without the jump starter (when it doesn't need it)?
 
1. When you stated "started the car and click -- dead", do you mean... (pick and modify any of the below answers):
A) you were able to start the car (engine running) but it suddenly died and all power went out as in no power to anything?
B) you were able to start the car (engine running) but it suddenly died but there was not enough power to start it again?
C) you were not able to start the car and the starter just "clicked" because it felt like there was not enough power to crank the starter? ==> Yes


2. You mentioned the dealership changed the ignition wires....did you mean the ignition coils and/or spark plugs or the wire harness in the engine bay? I only ask because there are no ignition wires on the QX70.
Ans- They changed the Ignition Wiring harness.

3. Does this scenario usually happen after the car has been driven? or anytime regardless if the engine has been cooled down completely?
Happens in both conditions,
have had the car plugged into a trickle charger at home, still some times it will click dead- this is when its cold.
I drive to a store and stop, turn car off and try to turn it on - click dead - warm or hot engine.

4. How many miles does the car have?
51000

5. When you put the jump starter on the battery, does the car start as if there's much more power to the starter than without the jump starter (when it doesn't need it)?
No, haven't noticed that.

Thank you for trying to help it is highly appreciated.
 
Hi! Thanks for your responses. Very helpful.

This sounds like a starter issue. One of four things are happening. Ranked most likely to least likely.

1. The magnetic switch on the starter may be faulty where the contacts inside are worn out.

2. The brushes inside the starter are worn out and are barely touching the armature (the starter motor).

3. The starter is motor is stopping in a spot where it's not positioned to electrically take on power to turn.

4. When the dealer replaced the ignition harness, it's possible the harness on the starter (one harness connection and one think positive battery terminal) were not secured correctly.



Above points explained:

1. The magnetic switch may be faulty where the contacts inside are worn out from usage. It's basically a magnetic relay that transfers power directly from the battery to the starter motor. From repeated usage the copper contacts inside erode and eventually become uneven enough or worn out beyond tolerances. 51000 miles is not a whole lot where this should fail but that also depends on how often the car is being started. But sometimes parts do tend to fail sooner and there's no rhyme or reason. (See below image showing the part itself. Part No: 23343-EY00B).

When you put the booster on the battery the added amperage is driving the magnetic switch harder which is making the contacts work. Now because this happens on and off is likely due to the contacts inside the magnetic switch eroding differently every time the car is started but ideally the magnetic switch needs to be replaced. Temperature has it's own effect on components where things expand and shrink and is enough to make something work intermittently when it's nearing it's end of life.

I replaced the magnetic switch on my starter around 110k miles while it was still working to avoid being stranded somewhere inconvenient. Removing the starter is a bit of a pain on the AWD because of the front axle being in the way but it is possible. While I was replacing magnetic switch I also checked the brushes and they were about 70% of their lifespan which was good enough so I did not replace them. The one thing about the brushes is that there's a total of four. One set of brushes are easily replaceable (which I would have to say is due to them being the ones that get the positive voltage hit from the battery and wear out faster) while the other set will need someone to remove the old ones from the brush holder and crimp the wire and solder it in.


upload_2024-7-3_12-58-50.png


The actual magnetic switch. It's a sealed design so there's no way to see the contacts. But there's ways to test it which I will explain below:

upload_2024-7-3_13-6-59.png


2. The brushes on the starter are worn out enough where they barely contact the armature but may work intermittently. Temperature changes can affect this part as well.

upload_2024-7-3_13-1-42.png


3. The starter motor is positioned in a spot where the brushes are sitting in between pads on a commutator. This is a long shot but I've seen this in some cars before. Haven't seen it on an Infiniti so I assume the starter was designed well enough to avoid such issue. Usually what guys would do it while one person is turning the key (pressing the start button) the other is tapping the starter with a hammer. This would be enough to move the starter motor (armature) enough to allow the brushes to land on the commutator correctly. This is a good way for diagnostic purposes but not something I'd recommend anyone doing on a daily basis.


4. It's possible that when the ignition harness was being replaced the dealer may have touched the starter wires. There's two wires that go into the starter. The first wire is a single thin wire harness that connects into the magnetic switch. This cable carries 12v +ve power when the start button is pressed to power the magnetic switch which then transfers power from the second larger cable carrying +ve power from the battery through the magnetic switch to the starter motor (armature). If any of these are loose they can cause issues but I'm going to say the technician did this correctly though I have my doubts since this issue came about when you had the ignition harness replaced.



With all that being said, I'm pretty sure we have the answer but there's just a few more diagnostics to go through to nail this 100% I'd hate having to see someone spend $$$ where it's not required but it could very well be exactly the part that needs replacing.

This is something you can do yourself or if preferred, the dealership can do but I have my reservations as I've seen enough laziness and incompetence. If the dealership is willing to do what's required then you'll be able to get this over with as I can see this being very annoying having to boost the car this often.

Ideally what I would do is a follows. This is in an order that eliminates as much unnecessary work as possible while maintaining as much of all the possible conditions that could be present with how the car is. The car would have to be in a state where the issue presents itself most of the time.

1. Inspect the starter and see if the magnetic switch harness is clipped in correctly and that the battery positive terminal cable is attached to the magnetic switch. If you use any tools, I'd disconnect the battery first to prevent any short circuits. The positive from the battery carries a lot of amperage and if you short circuit this to the car you could end up with a dead battery, injury, not fun. Disconnect battery first if any of these are loose.


Just in case my writing is hard to read, this is what I wrote:

Left hand: "Positive from battery"
Right hand: "Positive to starter brushes"

That thin black cable on the magnetic switch is the positive trigger that feeds 12volts to the magnetic switch when you press the start button.

upload_2024-7-3_14-17-21.png

2. I would test the starter's magnetic switch while it is installed on the car. You can do this in a few ways. While you can use a multimeter (digital/analog), I prefer to use a 12 volt bulb. It's easy to see something light up versus digits briefly flash on a multi meter. Especially when you're alone testing and there isn't a second person pressing the start button. Now I would attach the bulb to the positive starter brush cable. That's where the power goes when the magnetic switch energizes. That way you can see if power is actually going to the starter motor. This is where you test if the magnetic switch is the problem. If the starter (magnetic switch clicks) but the bulb does not light up and the starter does not turn, then its definitely the magnetic switch. Now if the bulb lights but the starter motor doesn't spin, then the brushes or position of the motor (armature) are the problem. If the car starts fine, then see if you can create the scenario where it does not start and use this method to test the magnetic switch.

3. Now if you're able to get the bulb not to light up when the starter clicks you'll want to pull the starter and inspect it. I would only open up the back of the motor to check the brushes and pull the magnetic switch off. If the brushes look healthy with plenty of life left and the commutator on the armature is still good, then just replace the magnetic switch. The magnetic switch contains a few parts like a metal spring and what appears to be a plastic lever that engages the starter "bendix" to the flywheel. If those looks good, then all you need is a magnetic switch.

If the starter just looks bad, just replace the starter. Replace the starter with an OEM rebuilt unit or a brand new unit. Rebuilt is more cost effective than a brand new starter. I've seen both and both work just fine. This is personal preference so I'll leave that up to you. If the price difference is minimal then just get a new OEM unit. Avoid any aftermarket rebuilt units. Nothing comes close to OEM and I've seen guys needing to replace their starter in a short period of time which is a waste of time and money because inferior brushes were used. In a nutshell it's a lot of work to pull and install a starter.
 

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One more addition that seems to confirm your analysis from yesterday.
Drove to a gas station, got a drink and car doesn't start, it keeps on clicking but not enough to start, so as usual attached jump start and keeps clicking, eventually portable jumpstart battery died.
I had to get someone to give me a jump start.
I read this as going with your point 1, where the contacts are getting worn more and more and needs even more power to start it up now.


There is one more item that is bothering me and which makes no logical sense, did not mention it since its happened only once before, driving on a curve at 60, switched to manual mode and all lights flickered and engine almost lost power, then came back up and was normal. i did a blue driver analysis on the car for all system modules and everything came back indicating a power loss, kind of causing circuits to shutdown, to me this is the "alternator' acting up.
But it could also be the result of the battery being excessively drained by the starter, not a 100% sure.

I think i will have the starter replaced, but at a different dealership. Please let me know if i have missed anything from your detailed analysis.
i would love to do this but if i do, my wife will definitely kill me and have me sent to the taxidermist(not necessarily in that order).
 
That does help a lot. The more we know of what's happening gives us more info on where the issue is. The thing about diagnosing an issue is that sometimes it can look like one thing until you learn of another symptom that leads you to where the issue is. I'd prefer not to do what the dealerships do and have you replace things for an absorbent amount of money until the problem goes away...so while you have a solution to keep the car starting...let's explore all avenues and keep the wife happy as well!

I apologize if my responses are a bit long winded. There's a lot of directions things can take at any moment ending up with different result. I've seen things that most people would never believe until they seen it for themselves. So hopefully some of my "rambling" can spark an idea as you're closer to your car.

But the fact that this all started ever since the dealer replaced the ignition harness definitely leads me to believe something was not hooked up correctly...wondering if they forgot to tighten the battery clamps as they normally have to disconnect the battery for electrical work...if they're loose, tighten them just enough so they don't slip off and see if the issue keeps happening...

When the clicking occurs, do the lights on the gauge cluster dim a lot ? If so, the battery is definitely drained and whatever power is left is not enough for the starter to turn over the engine. Would indicate an alternator issue.

But if they don't dim, then it sounds like the magnetic switch isn't transferring power to the actual starter motor. Which sounds like the magnetic switch is either faulty or there's not enough power in the battery to allow the magnetic switch fully engage to transfer power to the starter. Would indicate an alternator issue.

Also depends on the jump starter. There are some that provide constant power before and during starting. So the dash lights shine normal. Then there's ones that only provide power once the car is being started...it basically detects a voltage drop and pushes power to the battery while starting. In which case you would see a brief moment of the dash lights being dim then bright. An example would be the noco brand (possibly others).

I'd check a few of these things off:

Battery terminals:
- Check if the battery terminals are on tight. Since the dealer replaced a harness, they would most likely disconnect the battery. It's possible they slipped them on and may have forgotten to tighten them. I've seen this before. Mechanics rush, get interrupted and simply forget to perform the next step.
- Terminals don't need to be super tight, just enough to prevent them from slipping off, I test this by hand. Too tight could lead the clamp being stretched and it will be loose on the battery requiring a replacement of the clamp.
- I would remove the terminals, check the battery posts and insides of the terminals, then put them back on. Just remember to unlock the car and open the door to disengage the alarm as it will arm itself once power is back and likely go off with the hood open.
- There's fuses on the positive battery terminal under the red cover. I speculate these are fine but worth taking a glance over.

Battery test
- There's a handheld device that most shops use and it gives reading like state of charge, state of health, internal resistance,
- There's another device that's bigger and it puts a big load on the battery then shows the health of the battery on an analog meter. This is more of a true test because batteries for the most part look good voltage wise using a simple meter until you put a load on it and turns out the battery is either drained and needs a recharge (bad alternator) or the battery is just bad and needs replacement.

The part where you put it in manual mode where the lights flickered and the engine almost lost power definitely indicates a electrical power issue...which makes me wonder if the added vibrations of the engine caused something loose to become more loose....because normally when I put it in manual mode the rpms jump...but it all depends on speed, gear position etc but normally these cars like to stay in the highest gear for fuel efficiency (7 speed transmission).

It would be handy if you had one of those handheld battery testers to check the battery when you run into this issue. The ones that tell you the state of charge, state of health, voltage, internal resistance. They're usually inexpensive devices. Can grab one off amazon and then return it if you like. That way when this occurs you can check the battery and see what the state of charge is. I keep one and check my batteries every so often. Great device.


The part about the jumpstarter not being able to help until someone gave you a jumpstart...was the jumpstarter fully charged or had enough power for a few more starts? I ask because if it was partially drained then that could mean the magnetic switch didn't have enough force to make a good connection...whereas for a car without a magnetic switch issue it would be fine..what gets me is the jumpstarter draining after multiple attempts of just hearing the starter click...if it drains that fast...could mean the car's battery was pretty dead and the dead battery is draining the jumpstarter or the starter's motor is trying to crank but is somehow stuck..thus draining the battery but then someone gave you a jumpstart and it started so that means the starter wasn't stuck...and definitely there's no issue with the engine being able to crank normally...so if the battery is not getting charged enough and there's no light on the dash means there's enough charge but can't see how the battery would be so drained that there would not be enough battery to at least somewhat crank the engine..it just clicks...which leads me back to the magnetic switch...but at 51,000 miles...


One would think that some indicator would show up on the dash but I've seen cases where the alternator was experiencing an issue and it was just enough to not trigger a light but would not charge the battery fast enough while providing power to all the accessories (coils packs, ECU, A/C, fan, lights, etc). On short trips it was more obvious but on longer trips (drives) there were no issues in starting after turning the car off.

When starting the car, the starter sounded slightly slower (lower in tone) than usual which gave it away. Eventually what happened was some of the diodes inside the alternator died (rectifier) (there's usually a few for redundancy) and that caused only a 2/3 of the alternator to generate power (130amps to 90 amps) which meant that the battery was not getting charged fast enough. Eventually what happened was the alternator finally died because it was overworking itself with the remaining diodes and the battery died pretty quickly as well because it was never fully charged and as a result the lead plates deteriorated to the point the battery had a much smaller capacity than it should and the starter's magnetic switch contacts were eroded so badly because the battery didn't push enough power to both power the starter motor and keep the magnetic switch magnetized enough to prevent the contacts from sparking.

Turned out all three had to be replaced (battery, starter, alternator). This can happen but is not of the norm.

But overall, based on my observations with various issues I've come across either on my personal vehicles or someone else's, I replace my battery every 3-4 years. Unless you're able to get a Japanese made Panasonic battery, the ones made in North America aren't as good. I had a Japanese made Panasonic battery that lasted 8 years before it completely died. There was never a hint of an issue or loss of capacity until one day I couldn't remotely unlock the car. It simply died and I assume the lead connection inside deteriorated. If I wanted another Panasonic battery then it would cost me $700USD to import it. That's just insane and definitely not worth it as there's a chance something could eventually kill it.

Overall, there's a few battery makers in North America (Johnson Controls, East Penn, etc) and I found the Kirkland branded ones sold by Costco tend to be the best as they're made by East Penn. Their warranty is pretty good. I've spent plenty of time researching batteries in general and had plenty of experience around batteries of various brands. The dealerships will use the cheapest battery out there, then sell it like it's god knows what, then offer you a mediocre warranty which really turns out never to work in your favor unless it was a lemon early on. That's how they make their money. There's lot of brands, Interstate, Optima, etc, but turns out those good old days where stuff was made great are long gone and the more expensive the battery is, the more one ends up losing money in the end...batteries are made to a mediocre spec but what's also important is that lead acid batteries are very old tech...tech that should have been phased out a long time ago but haven't because it makes companies money and it's pretty safe around people. So a win-win for them, not us.

Lead acid batteries lose power on a daily basis when they sit in the car. Car's also draw a very small amount of power. When a battery's charge drops low enough, the chemistry starts to change and the acid erodes the lead plates which over time causes a short circuit at the bottom of the battery (from all the lead particles) and the loss of lead means less power being offered by the battery. But overall, this is a topic that many people will keep circling on but overall the best battery is one that is good enough and replace it often because as long as it's fresh then it will serve it's purpose for the next 3-4 years. Oh and don't bother with those AGM batteries, while the science behind it is cool, the cost difference isn't worth it and most importantly, AGM batteries require higher voltage to be charged. So if a car did not come with an AGM battery, the charging system won't be able to charge it fully making it a weak battery that will deteriorate quickly...usually European cars have AGM batteries.

Fingers crossed that it's something small like those battery clamps...have a feeling...
 
Posting an update on this thread..

Checks

1. Got all parts checked and all came out fine, had the battery/alternator and starter checked at 3 different places and all came out good.

Preventive

2. I got a battery voltage tester and hooked it to the battery so it can warn me of low battery as it stays under the hood and sends bluetooth notifications.

3. I kept the battery connected to a trickle charger to prevent it from totally dying out - Life Support !!

Troubleshooting

4. I did a parasitic drain test and noticed when car is not locked with Alarm or door locked when in the garage the USB ports were drawing significant power, so i started unplugging the usb when not locking with door lock button or remote.

5. I also removed the battery and tested all the fuses under there- laborious but got it done, used money saved by not going to the dealer and bought a good multimeter and relearnt how to to use all functions.

6. I also fixed the battery in place with some lightweight vibration foam on all sides and re-tightened the clamps.

7. I also made a habit of checking battery voltage everyday and recording the values- ever since i started locking the car, no variation in battery capacity !!!

Its been about 3 weeks since i removed the car from Life Support and battery has NOT died on me neither have i seen any starting issues so far, will update if i see any changes.

Thank you SCY7H3 for taking the time and trouble to read/reply/help, its people like you who increase the value of the site.

Thank you all.
With Regards
blkinfi13
 
Wow that's amazing!! Glad you were able to get a lot of things checked out and the issue resolved. The extra troubleshooting you performed was definitely the right steps! I know it's a lot of tedious work but sometimes it's good to check everything over, never know what one may find. It was quite a battle but well worth it. The USB port drain is interesting, I haven't come across that but something I'm going to look at out of curiosity.

It's always great to help others get their vehicles up and running as I know how frustrating it can be. I've gone through enough issues of my own but that's not to say that these cars are problematic, it's just a matter of small issues and often issues introduced by something that was done. I'm always here if anyone needs me as I get alerts for threads posted so post away!
 
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