On my mind (turbo's supercharger for sale)
- Thread starter fxlr8
- Start date
- Car
- 2003 FX45 AWD
Dammm Son.. WTF..
I can't wait to make it out there this year John.. I definitely want to take a my FX out there in NY and at the same time hang out...
Maybe this Spring or summer...
I can't wait to make it out there this year John.. I definitely want to take a my FX out there in NY and at the same time hang out...
Maybe this Spring or summer...
sounds good to me 
jeff, I'll make a thread for this when I get a chance & when I have more concrete info. but for now just going to throw some of the conversation up here that I've been having with a few nissan techs.
***********the following post is going to be long & maybe boring to those that don't care, so you've been warned***********
I'm now talking to several nissan techs & trying to reach out to see exactly what resources I have available to me... it's going to suck having to tow my fx to the dealer in pieces just to have them connect a consultIII & try to program it, maybe it works, maybe it don't... then tow it back, make blind changes & tow it back again... could be fun... I don't think there are any techs out there that are allowed to remove a 13k piece of equiptment from the dealership, so this may indeed be necissary
first & preferred way would be to get it running on the HR box, which so far is my main goal & target. my thoughts are that the can communication buss that communicates from the different modules can be connected to the 07 ecu & that chances are pretty good that the 03 components will more than likely still communicate with the 07 ecu for the most part. the can buss is nothing more than just 2 wires, can high & can low, & all the modules are connected to each other through this buss. each component sends packets & sniffs for packets made for itself, just passing on the packets that are not useful to the next module in the daisy chain & I think the chances are pretty high that the language & packet specs on the 03 stuff is going to be the same as the 07, I'm hoping that for example the 03 IP module is sending out & receiving the same basic data that the 07 might have, same for the body computer & hopefully even the security module or the NATS, the cruise module etc...
now where I'm getting a bit concerned is, even if all of this is true, I still will need some external help. for example, even if I get it in & fully wired up & everything is a go, I'd still need someone with a consult III to be able to reprogram the keys to the HR ecu before it could have any hope of even starting because of the NATS system. of course after the fact I could indeed realize that there may be communication differences elsewere too, would I need to swap out to a 07g35x body computer?... is it possible that the IP module is different enough that I need to source even more g35x components? the adaptive cruise, the ABS, stuff like that. even though I'm thinking that the communication protocols & the language is probably all the same or similar enough that most things will still function I of course have no way of knowing for sure until after the fact.
second option I see is to drop the HR motor in, but then run it off the existing DE ecu combined with a Utec. I believe this is a more sure fire way of doing this, as I'm fairly sure that I can get the DE ecu to run the HR motor. this would involve me having to build a custom intake though & going back to a single TB setup instead of the dual TB of the hr. the only other issue would be the exhaust valve timing control which of course the DE knows nothing about, but, from my research too I'm lead to believe that since the exhaust valve solenoid is very simplistic & basically either on or off & rpm based, this control may be doable with the utec that I already have now on the DE ecu.
third option of a stand alone can't even be considered yet because even to use a stand alone, I still must first have a factory ecu installed & functional for the communications anyway. many think that a stand alone completely replaces the factory ecu but it does not, it installs & works much like a piggyback in that it will still use the existing ecu for communications to the rest of the vehicle, only a stand alne does not depend on the factory ECU for any perameters in regards to the running of the engine, hence stand alone... it doesn't literally "stand alone" it just stands alone in it's fuinction, but is still dependant on a stock ecu, so I can't even consider a stand alone until after I get a stock ecu working with the engine, either DE ecu or HR ecu
I've already decided that I am doing it, & since I've already decided that, that means that I've already decided that I will do whatever it takes too, weather it involves having to source a whole bunch more g35x parts or going stand alone or whatever else it might take I do realize that most would consider something like this impractical & of course this is the reason it hasn't been casually done before, but I refuse to believe that it is impossible either, & this belief is enough to make me want to do it & know that I will in the end pull it off one way or the other.
the emissions control & state inspection is a very big issue & should be a primary concern in dealing with a swap like this, this is not a race car for off road use only & has to be inspect-able to not be a big waste & destroy the worth of the vehicle really.
I have a friend with an inspection station & another who is an investigator for the state dmv and today I have talked to both of them about the ways of getting a valid inspection, in NY if the vehicle does not have a valid inspection the dmv will not even renew a registration. I'm now seeing that the day of just sticking another vehicle on the machine & generating a sticker is no more, an inspection is done with a live connection to the state computer & likes been said, one of the first things that the state equipment does is confirm the Vin #.
initially guys have come up with a method of initiating the inspection on the target vehicle & then switching the cable to an alternate vehicle & successfully completing an inspection, but the newest state software does another Vin check mid way through & this has become very difficult to trick, bottom line is for a swap to be considered successful then the vehicle must be done in such a way that it can legally pass a state inspection through the obdII interface at least. what the state computer don't see doesn't matter so much, the idea is for the ecu to not see any problems & pass with no red flags.
incidentally, the state inspector also tells me that in the case of a Vin not matching the vehicle's pcm stored Vin, the inspection can still go through, but it will raise a red flag in the dmv & they will investigate, they investigate the inspection station mainly & the fines for improperly done state inspections start at $1,000 each, his own words are that they are giving the shops just enough rope to hang themselves because this is a big revenue generator for them, so you better make sure that all required emissions components are in place & nothing else is tampered with or altered in such a way that the vehicle should have failed visually at least to protect the station, but the station will not be penalized just for the fact that the Vin is incorrect if everything else is 100% legit, if the car has a turbo setup or anything else that is not carb certified then you def don't want to kick up any red flags though & need to stay under there radar with a green flag inspection, the NYS dmv is actively searching for situations just like this, also if it detects one Vin on initiation & another midway through the procedure of an inspection the inspection station is going to get screwed for sure
I'm told they are seeing issues pop up here & there with salvage pcm's swapped. he even told me of one of his more recent cases of 2 identical Nissan's that belong to 2 separate owners on either side of town. they got a double red flag because each vehicle had the incorrect Vin # stored in there ecu's... turns out they had each others vin... the investigator eventually traced it down to the local dealer at some point having these vehicles side by side & troubleshooting an issue winded up swapping the ecu's to test, & then for some reason was never swapped back, the tech just thinking it didn't even matter because they were both the same & it wasn't the problem anyway... I only spent about 20 minutes speaking with the state inspector & I didn't have the time to ask him 101 other questions I have, but I will find out more from him next time I speak to him
my goal here is not to try & find a way to circumvent a legal obdII scan inspection, I want to pull off a swap that is legal enough to legitimately pass a state inspection at the obdII interface. my understanding of rules for an engine swap is the new engine must be of the same year as the vehicle or later, & must have all of the emissions components of the later engine in place & functioning & meet all of the requirements of the later engines requirements, at that point it is a legal legitimate swap. I don't want to have to compromise the inspection station in any way either & red flags while I have a set of twins on this thing can be trouble.
I need to find out if my 03 Vin can be entered in the 07 ecu, I've asked a few Nissan techs & have only gotten a few "I don't know but I'll try to find out for you" answers so far. I guess this may also be a question for the aftermarket ecu re flashers too maybe? if the state computer verifies a correct Vin, & then verifies that the readiness monitors required to be ready are ready, & that there is no check engine light for an emissions related issue & no stored codes for an emissions related problem then the vehicle legally & legitimately passes a state inspection with a green flag at the obdII scan level & were good to go. this must be achieved for this to be a successful swap to me. the vehicle will not fail if the abs doesn't work, or the stability control or the cruise control or even the airbags & the dash is lit up like a Christmas tree, the pass or fail with the state computer hookup is strictly emissions & check engine light Dependant.
from the FSM's there are like 16 different can bus system types, depending on the engine & the options the vehicle has, they are broken down by the options the vehicle has, & mine being a tech package awd vehicle should mesh well with the g35x ecu I have if it was a tech package ecu with Ikey too, which chances are it was. for example my body control module is not set up for a push button ignition, but it is still a proximity sensor Ikey system, & in the end the important part of that is that it will still be able to communicate with the newer ecu & still perform the key coding communication necessary to re-learn the keys, it should work & I would of course rather keep it if it does work, your words are reassuring, I would think it's possible to get something like this done & have all trouble codes solved & everything working 100% if everything communicates, which it should... what kind of codes would you get that can't be solved? maybe for a race car shooting it down enough to satisfy the ecu is not a priority, but I can't imagine a fault that couldn't be corrected really for a street swap
there has been much speculation on the fx forums about converting to a push button ign, swapping the bcm from a push button ign system like the g would be the ideal way to accomplish this, & may be a good enough reason alone to swap out the 07 bcm eventually if I ever get my hands on one with the harness pigtails, wish I had the one from this drive train & the keys even, but initially I will connect it with the existing 03 key & attempt to have it programmed with the 07 bcm. I've already installed a 07 ipm earlier & it communicated no problem & works fine, hopefully everything plays nice with each other
forced induction is the reason for the swap in the first place I want to increase to ~450 to the wheels, not looking to go crazy, but looking to go past the point I'd feel comfortable with on the stock DE motor, I'm looking for ~525 to the flywheel reliably. the hr motor is more than enough for my use, where I'd have to use a built DE instead, I feel more comfortable with a factory assembled low mileage motor than a rebuilt anything from some unknown, & a good reliable built substitute in the DE engine from a reputable builder is maybe triple the cost of this HR motor, & in the end I'd probably still trust the factory engine more tbh
I agree that this swap is probably not worth it in a 350z, I mean even if you had an 03, you could probably just sell it for 11k & get an 07 for like 19k, your not going to save a whole lot by performing this swap & considering that the investment of upgrading to the 07 will also result in a vehicle with a higher resale value it makes this even more of a no brainer, but the fx is different, the HR motor only became available in the 09's... the 09's are a whole different animal, & even if I did want to do the trade up the gap between what I have now & what I'd have to spend for the new one is much wider than the gap with a Z, were talking +25K more to update to the fx with the HR... compare that to my original plan of new HR engine & transmission, complete with FI making 500+ at ~ the 10k mark, can't do that with the dE at all, the HR is the budget bang for the buck way of doing this in my eyes...
I was considering ordering up the beginnings of the turbo components but I have since decided to just not let the turbo's distract me from the main goal right now & will have FI be stage 2 of this project, I'll consider options for the FI depending on how I get this in & running.
I really think it would be pretty simple to get this running on the DE ecu if I'm willing to loose the dual throttle bodies & the variable cam timing, & in the end this is still enough to be worth this swap considering my goals, but of course I'd much rather have it all with the HR ecu...
I agree that having a complete donor vehicle is the ideal way to have everything you need, but this is not always practical or possible & not necissarily manditory for this either. it's easy to just take everything as a whole & drop it into an old body & get it to work, one guy is doing one & even using the 350z dash & all from the donor car, but I think it can be grafted into an existing car that already has all systems in place too & may even be cleaner & easier than swapping out whole dash harnesses.
ok, Nissan's NATS system is designed in such a way that the BCM is paired to the Ikey for the vehicle's actual ign lock mechanism, the bcm controls the whole show as a wireless ign lock all by itself, but if Nissan just left it at that, then anyone would be able to swap out the BCM with a new key programmed to the new BCM & be able to drive the vehicle away, the NATS system simply expands on this by also requiring the BCM to transmit it's learned key code each time a start is attempted, & requires the code to also match the ecu stored code, that's it in a nutshell really. if the NATS was removed from the ECU then the electronic ignition lock would still function fine with just the BCM, but this would be a security vulnerability in that anyone would be able to start the vehicle with a new BCM/Ikey combo. of course if all Nissan's were set up this way it would be a huge vulnerability, but if just one vehicle happened to have the NATS removed from it's BCM who would even be the wiser? what are the chances someone is going to steal your car by breaking in & replacing the bcm with one that they brought with them & had a key programmed to it? especially since of course this would never work on any other Nissan/infiniti, I don't see that as a big problem if it had to be lost but I will keep it if possible of course which it should be.
the BCM itself does all of the transmitting & receiving with the key for confirmation to allow the electronic unlocking of the ignition, now granted the 03 system is very different from the 07, but in the end it shouldn't really matter, I mean the 03 BCM will still control the existing 03 ign lock equipment, & should still transmit the key code to the ECU through the can buss with the correct PID's, first time for programming & then each start same thing, allowing the ECU to send a start signal to the IPDM. if I had to swap out the 07 BCM then of course I would have to swap out the rest of the components that the 07 BCM uses for it's ign lock architecture, the button & maybe the later lock assy & also including of course a latter oval shaped key (another good reason for a BCM swap even if not necessary otherwise) but I really think the 03 should work the same & will send a key code to the ECU that it can in turn learn & work the same as it would otherwise & retain the NATS functionality.
the Nissan control system works in such a way that each individual system is primarily a stand alone control for the system at hand, be it the ABS or the BCM with the IPDM as the common module used by the others for the higher amperage switching & power distribution chores. of course these individual systems also rely on communication with any other module on the buss that it may need to communicate with through the can buss, both transmit & receive.
all of the systems that are in place & fully functional right now will still all be in place & have the same potential to continue to work as they do. they will still send the data over the buss that is addressed to the ECU as it always has & the new ECU should be able to recognize this data & send data out that the respective modules addressed to should be able to recognize & respond appropriately. the data sent over this buss is sent in packets called PID's. each PID is a specific bit of data & every PID initiates with an identifier that allows each module that it passes to know if this PID is addressed to itself or not. where potential problems would come in is if:
A, the new ECU receives a PID that is addressed to itself but it doesn't recognize the data(unknown result)
B,the new ECU sends out a PID that it needs a specific response for, but doesn't receive it(unknown result)
C,one of the existing 03 modules receives a PID addressed to it from the ECU but the module doesn't recognize the data(unknown result)
D,a situation that one of the sub systems needs a PID that would be generated by the original ECU but the new ECU doesn't send it.
chances of any of these situations happening may be Dependant on if the newer system happened to use something that the older systems are not aware of?. also probably somewhat Dependant on the can buss system type, which is basically a matter of the options packages on the vehicles being compatible with the options packages of the ecu. try to use a rwd non tech ecu in a tech awd vehicle then of course your going to have problems with stability control & many trouble codes with improper communications, it's not that the actual PID data is any different for any specific can buss types though, they are all speaking the same language really, it's a matter of recognizing & expecting what it is receiving & getting the expected results from the data it sends. the different can buss types identified are only for trouble shooting purposes so they can just go through a tree appropriate to the systems in the particular vehicle, so if there are 30 different can buss types then that means there are 30 different trouble shooting paths that can be gone down depending on the systems installed.
while there are potentials for communications problems, for the most part I bet that everything will play nicely & the main functionality of all systems should be able to be retained as long as the ecu is from a vehicle that had the same options. now to be able to program the 03 vin into the 07 ecu, that's the first hurdle that needs to be overcome. I'm thinking this shouldn't be so difficult, I'd be a little surprised if it can't be done...
jeff, I'll make a thread for this when I get a chance & when I have more concrete info. but for now just going to throw some of the conversation up here that I've been having with a few nissan techs.
***********the following post is going to be long & maybe boring to those that don't care, so you've been warned
***********I'm now talking to several nissan techs & trying to reach out to see exactly what resources I have available to me... it's going to suck having to tow my fx to the dealer in pieces just to have them connect a consultIII & try to program it, maybe it works, maybe it don't... then tow it back, make blind changes & tow it back again... could be fun... I don't think there are any techs out there that are allowed to remove a 13k piece of equiptment from the dealership, so this may indeed be necissary
first & preferred way would be to get it running on the HR box, which so far is my main goal & target. my thoughts are that the can communication buss that communicates from the different modules can be connected to the 07 ecu & that chances are pretty good that the 03 components will more than likely still communicate with the 07 ecu for the most part. the can buss is nothing more than just 2 wires, can high & can low, & all the modules are connected to each other through this buss. each component sends packets & sniffs for packets made for itself, just passing on the packets that are not useful to the next module in the daisy chain & I think the chances are pretty high that the language & packet specs on the 03 stuff is going to be the same as the 07, I'm hoping that for example the 03 IP module is sending out & receiving the same basic data that the 07 might have, same for the body computer & hopefully even the security module or the NATS, the cruise module etc...
now where I'm getting a bit concerned is, even if all of this is true, I still will need some external help. for example, even if I get it in & fully wired up & everything is a go, I'd still need someone with a consult III to be able to reprogram the keys to the HR ecu before it could have any hope of even starting because of the NATS system. of course after the fact I could indeed realize that there may be communication differences elsewere too, would I need to swap out to a 07g35x body computer?... is it possible that the IP module is different enough that I need to source even more g35x components? the adaptive cruise, the ABS, stuff like that. even though I'm thinking that the communication protocols & the language is probably all the same or similar enough that most things will still function I of course have no way of knowing for sure until after the fact.
second option I see is to drop the HR motor in, but then run it off the existing DE ecu combined with a Utec. I believe this is a more sure fire way of doing this, as I'm fairly sure that I can get the DE ecu to run the HR motor. this would involve me having to build a custom intake though & going back to a single TB setup instead of the dual TB of the hr. the only other issue would be the exhaust valve timing control which of course the DE knows nothing about, but, from my research too I'm lead to believe that since the exhaust valve solenoid is very simplistic & basically either on or off & rpm based, this control may be doable with the utec that I already have now on the DE ecu.
third option of a stand alone can't even be considered yet because even to use a stand alone, I still must first have a factory ecu installed & functional for the communications anyway. many think that a stand alone completely replaces the factory ecu but it does not, it installs & works much like a piggyback in that it will still use the existing ecu for communications to the rest of the vehicle, only a stand alne does not depend on the factory ECU for any perameters in regards to the running of the engine, hence stand alone... it doesn't literally "stand alone" it just stands alone in it's fuinction, but is still dependant on a stock ecu, so I can't even consider a stand alone until after I get a stock ecu working with the engine, either DE ecu or HR ecu
I've already decided that I am doing it, & since I've already decided that, that means that I've already decided that I will do whatever it takes too, weather it involves having to source a whole bunch more g35x parts or going stand alone or whatever else it might take I do realize that most would consider something like this impractical & of course this is the reason it hasn't been casually done before, but I refuse to believe that it is impossible either, & this belief is enough to make me want to do it & know that I will in the end pull it off one way or the other.
the emissions control & state inspection is a very big issue & should be a primary concern in dealing with a swap like this, this is not a race car for off road use only & has to be inspect-able to not be a big waste & destroy the worth of the vehicle really.
I have a friend with an inspection station & another who is an investigator for the state dmv and today I have talked to both of them about the ways of getting a valid inspection, in NY if the vehicle does not have a valid inspection the dmv will not even renew a registration. I'm now seeing that the day of just sticking another vehicle on the machine & generating a sticker is no more, an inspection is done with a live connection to the state computer & likes been said, one of the first things that the state equipment does is confirm the Vin #.
initially guys have come up with a method of initiating the inspection on the target vehicle & then switching the cable to an alternate vehicle & successfully completing an inspection, but the newest state software does another Vin check mid way through & this has become very difficult to trick, bottom line is for a swap to be considered successful then the vehicle must be done in such a way that it can legally pass a state inspection through the obdII interface at least. what the state computer don't see doesn't matter so much, the idea is for the ecu to not see any problems & pass with no red flags.
incidentally, the state inspector also tells me that in the case of a Vin not matching the vehicle's pcm stored Vin, the inspection can still go through, but it will raise a red flag in the dmv & they will investigate, they investigate the inspection station mainly & the fines for improperly done state inspections start at $1,000 each, his own words are that they are giving the shops just enough rope to hang themselves because this is a big revenue generator for them, so you better make sure that all required emissions components are in place & nothing else is tampered with or altered in such a way that the vehicle should have failed visually at least to protect the station, but the station will not be penalized just for the fact that the Vin is incorrect if everything else is 100% legit, if the car has a turbo setup or anything else that is not carb certified then you def don't want to kick up any red flags though & need to stay under there radar with a green flag inspection, the NYS dmv is actively searching for situations just like this, also if it detects one Vin on initiation & another midway through the procedure of an inspection the inspection station is going to get screwed for sure
I'm told they are seeing issues pop up here & there with salvage pcm's swapped. he even told me of one of his more recent cases of 2 identical Nissan's that belong to 2 separate owners on either side of town. they got a double red flag because each vehicle had the incorrect Vin # stored in there ecu's... turns out they had each others vin... the investigator eventually traced it down to the local dealer at some point having these vehicles side by side & troubleshooting an issue winded up swapping the ecu's to test, & then for some reason was never swapped back, the tech just thinking it didn't even matter because they were both the same & it wasn't the problem anyway... I only spent about 20 minutes speaking with the state inspector & I didn't have the time to ask him 101 other questions I have, but I will find out more from him next time I speak to him
my goal here is not to try & find a way to circumvent a legal obdII scan inspection, I want to pull off a swap that is legal enough to legitimately pass a state inspection at the obdII interface. my understanding of rules for an engine swap is the new engine must be of the same year as the vehicle or later, & must have all of the emissions components of the later engine in place & functioning & meet all of the requirements of the later engines requirements, at that point it is a legal legitimate swap. I don't want to have to compromise the inspection station in any way either & red flags while I have a set of twins on this thing can be trouble.
I need to find out if my 03 Vin can be entered in the 07 ecu, I've asked a few Nissan techs & have only gotten a few "I don't know but I'll try to find out for you" answers so far. I guess this may also be a question for the aftermarket ecu re flashers too maybe? if the state computer verifies a correct Vin, & then verifies that the readiness monitors required to be ready are ready, & that there is no check engine light for an emissions related issue & no stored codes for an emissions related problem then the vehicle legally & legitimately passes a state inspection with a green flag at the obdII scan level & were good to go. this must be achieved for this to be a successful swap to me. the vehicle will not fail if the abs doesn't work, or the stability control or the cruise control or even the airbags & the dash is lit up like a Christmas tree, the pass or fail with the state computer hookup is strictly emissions & check engine light Dependant.
from the FSM's there are like 16 different can bus system types, depending on the engine & the options the vehicle has, they are broken down by the options the vehicle has, & mine being a tech package awd vehicle should mesh well with the g35x ecu I have if it was a tech package ecu with Ikey too, which chances are it was. for example my body control module is not set up for a push button ignition, but it is still a proximity sensor Ikey system, & in the end the important part of that is that it will still be able to communicate with the newer ecu & still perform the key coding communication necessary to re-learn the keys, it should work & I would of course rather keep it if it does work, your words are reassuring, I would think it's possible to get something like this done & have all trouble codes solved & everything working 100% if everything communicates, which it should... what kind of codes would you get that can't be solved? maybe for a race car shooting it down enough to satisfy the ecu is not a priority, but I can't imagine a fault that couldn't be corrected really for a street swap
there has been much speculation on the fx forums about converting to a push button ign, swapping the bcm from a push button ign system like the g would be the ideal way to accomplish this, & may be a good enough reason alone to swap out the 07 bcm eventually if I ever get my hands on one with the harness pigtails, wish I had the one from this drive train & the keys even, but initially I will connect it with the existing 03 key & attempt to have it programmed with the 07 bcm. I've already installed a 07 ipm earlier & it communicated no problem & works fine, hopefully everything plays nice with each other
forced induction is the reason for the swap in the first place I want to increase to ~450 to the wheels, not looking to go crazy, but looking to go past the point I'd feel comfortable with on the stock DE motor, I'm looking for ~525 to the flywheel reliably. the hr motor is more than enough for my use, where I'd have to use a built DE instead, I feel more comfortable with a factory assembled low mileage motor than a rebuilt anything from some unknown, & a good reliable built substitute in the DE engine from a reputable builder is maybe triple the cost of this HR motor, & in the end I'd probably still trust the factory engine more tbh
I agree that this swap is probably not worth it in a 350z, I mean even if you had an 03, you could probably just sell it for 11k & get an 07 for like 19k, your not going to save a whole lot by performing this swap & considering that the investment of upgrading to the 07 will also result in a vehicle with a higher resale value it makes this even more of a no brainer, but the fx is different, the HR motor only became available in the 09's... the 09's are a whole different animal, & even if I did want to do the trade up the gap between what I have now & what I'd have to spend for the new one is much wider than the gap with a Z, were talking +25K more to update to the fx with the HR... compare that to my original plan of new HR engine & transmission, complete with FI making 500+ at ~ the 10k mark, can't do that with the dE at all, the HR is the budget bang for the buck way of doing this in my eyes...
I was considering ordering up the beginnings of the turbo components but I have since decided to just not let the turbo's distract me from the main goal right now & will have FI be stage 2 of this project, I'll consider options for the FI depending on how I get this in & running.
I really think it would be pretty simple to get this running on the DE ecu if I'm willing to loose the dual throttle bodies & the variable cam timing, & in the end this is still enough to be worth this swap considering my goals, but of course I'd much rather have it all with the HR ecu...
I agree that having a complete donor vehicle is the ideal way to have everything you need, but this is not always practical or possible & not necissarily manditory for this either. it's easy to just take everything as a whole & drop it into an old body & get it to work, one guy is doing one & even using the 350z dash & all from the donor car, but I think it can be grafted into an existing car that already has all systems in place too & may even be cleaner & easier than swapping out whole dash harnesses.
ok, Nissan's NATS system is designed in such a way that the BCM is paired to the Ikey for the vehicle's actual ign lock mechanism, the bcm controls the whole show as a wireless ign lock all by itself, but if Nissan just left it at that, then anyone would be able to swap out the BCM with a new key programmed to the new BCM & be able to drive the vehicle away, the NATS system simply expands on this by also requiring the BCM to transmit it's learned key code each time a start is attempted, & requires the code to also match the ecu stored code, that's it in a nutshell really. if the NATS was removed from the ECU then the electronic ignition lock would still function fine with just the BCM, but this would be a security vulnerability in that anyone would be able to start the vehicle with a new BCM/Ikey combo. of course if all Nissan's were set up this way it would be a huge vulnerability, but if just one vehicle happened to have the NATS removed from it's BCM who would even be the wiser? what are the chances someone is going to steal your car by breaking in & replacing the bcm with one that they brought with them & had a key programmed to it? especially since of course this would never work on any other Nissan/infiniti, I don't see that as a big problem if it had to be lost but I will keep it if possible of course which it should be.
the BCM itself does all of the transmitting & receiving with the key for confirmation to allow the electronic unlocking of the ignition, now granted the 03 system is very different from the 07, but in the end it shouldn't really matter, I mean the 03 BCM will still control the existing 03 ign lock equipment, & should still transmit the key code to the ECU through the can buss with the correct PID's, first time for programming & then each start same thing, allowing the ECU to send a start signal to the IPDM. if I had to swap out the 07 BCM then of course I would have to swap out the rest of the components that the 07 BCM uses for it's ign lock architecture, the button & maybe the later lock assy & also including of course a latter oval shaped key (another good reason for a BCM swap even if not necessary otherwise) but I really think the 03 should work the same & will send a key code to the ECU that it can in turn learn & work the same as it would otherwise & retain the NATS functionality.
the Nissan control system works in such a way that each individual system is primarily a stand alone control for the system at hand, be it the ABS or the BCM with the IPDM as the common module used by the others for the higher amperage switching & power distribution chores. of course these individual systems also rely on communication with any other module on the buss that it may need to communicate with through the can buss, both transmit & receive.
all of the systems that are in place & fully functional right now will still all be in place & have the same potential to continue to work as they do. they will still send the data over the buss that is addressed to the ECU as it always has & the new ECU should be able to recognize this data & send data out that the respective modules addressed to should be able to recognize & respond appropriately. the data sent over this buss is sent in packets called PID's. each PID is a specific bit of data & every PID initiates with an identifier that allows each module that it passes to know if this PID is addressed to itself or not. where potential problems would come in is if:
A, the new ECU receives a PID that is addressed to itself but it doesn't recognize the data(unknown result)
B,the new ECU sends out a PID that it needs a specific response for, but doesn't receive it(unknown result)
C,one of the existing 03 modules receives a PID addressed to it from the ECU but the module doesn't recognize the data(unknown result)
D,a situation that one of the sub systems needs a PID that would be generated by the original ECU but the new ECU doesn't send it.
chances of any of these situations happening may be Dependant on if the newer system happened to use something that the older systems are not aware of?. also probably somewhat Dependant on the can buss system type, which is basically a matter of the options packages on the vehicles being compatible with the options packages of the ecu. try to use a rwd non tech ecu in a tech awd vehicle then of course your going to have problems with stability control & many trouble codes with improper communications, it's not that the actual PID data is any different for any specific can buss types though, they are all speaking the same language really, it's a matter of recognizing & expecting what it is receiving & getting the expected results from the data it sends. the different can buss types identified are only for trouble shooting purposes so they can just go through a tree appropriate to the systems in the particular vehicle, so if there are 30 different can buss types then that means there are 30 different trouble shooting paths that can be gone down depending on the systems installed.
while there are potentials for communications problems, for the most part I bet that everything will play nicely & the main functionality of all systems should be able to be retained as long as the ecu is from a vehicle that had the same options. now to be able to program the 03 vin into the 07 ecu, that's the first hurdle that needs to be overcome. I'm thinking this shouldn't be so difficult, I'd be a little surprised if it can't be done...
- Car
- 2003 FX35T
- Name
- Brad
I followed along pretty well. I'm having a difficult time understanding why it wouldn't be better to run this with the HR harness, HR ECU and UTEC, instead of trying to make the 03 DE ECU work with the 07 HR motor. Maybe I'm off base or just don't understand enough about it yet.
From a outside perspective (a project manager who bids & executes new product development work for a living), I'm not sure I agree that this would be the most economical way to reach your goals. You have thrown out 10K as a sort of benchmark, but the number of hours you are putting into this are not free. Sure, you are doing much of the labor yourself, but it's still your time. Tell me it's less than 10K and that you tracked your hours as well and it's not some HUGE number like 2000 hours (a business man-year). Any "employee" putting in that kind of time is getting a salary. In your case, this is time you could be using to make money by working on money making projects. Of course we all have free time to spend on projects and pursuits, but I have a feeling this will dip more than a little into your business time. It will benefit your knowlege and be applicable to your future business, but really you have to quantify it to understand the real cost. Just as a novelty, you should track your hours on this. Research, study, phone conversations... testing, failures, fixes and solutions.
The JWT TT does not require a built DE at all, but of course you'll never reach 500 at the crank if you don't build. 400whp would be more realistic for a reliable JWT TT boost system, assuming you have completed the supporting system mods (as both you and I have already done). I would argue the JWT TT comes in around 8K-10K labor included on a bone stock motor, which is what it is designed for.
Would you get a bit more value for your approach? Maybe. But we won't know till you actually finish it. The more you learn, the more it sounds like you will have to do some pioneering work - this has never been done casually as you said. Groundbreaking is never as easy as we hope it will be, as is the cost & schedule associated with doing something that has never been done. I have faith in your skill and craftsmanship since I've seen examples here on IS, but I am definitely a numbers guy - my career performance is based on this kind of thing. Tracking yourself on time & money spent would be only to your own advantage. You are spending Research and Development to get this done, which is much more than the "production" hardware you will end up with. If you were to do a second, third and fourth identical swap you might be able to bring the cost down to 10K with efficiency and knowing exactly what you need.
From a outside perspective (a project manager who bids & executes new product development work for a living), I'm not sure I agree that this would be the most economical way to reach your goals. You have thrown out 10K as a sort of benchmark, but the number of hours you are putting into this are not free. Sure, you are doing much of the labor yourself, but it's still your time. Tell me it's less than 10K and that you tracked your hours as well and it's not some HUGE number like 2000 hours (a business man-year). Any "employee" putting in that kind of time is getting a salary. In your case, this is time you could be using to make money by working on money making projects. Of course we all have free time to spend on projects and pursuits, but I have a feeling this will dip more than a little into your business time. It will benefit your knowlege and be applicable to your future business, but really you have to quantify it to understand the real cost. Just as a novelty, you should track your hours on this. Research, study, phone conversations... testing, failures, fixes and solutions.
The JWT TT does not require a built DE at all, but of course you'll never reach 500 at the crank if you don't build. 400whp would be more realistic for a reliable JWT TT boost system, assuming you have completed the supporting system mods (as both you and I have already done). I would argue the JWT TT comes in around 8K-10K labor included on a bone stock motor, which is what it is designed for.
Would you get a bit more value for your approach? Maybe. But we won't know till you actually finish it. The more you learn, the more it sounds like you will have to do some pioneering work - this has never been done casually as you said. Groundbreaking is never as easy as we hope it will be, as is the cost & schedule associated with doing something that has never been done. I have faith in your skill and craftsmanship since I've seen examples here on IS, but I am definitely a numbers guy - my career performance is based on this kind of thing. Tracking yourself on time & money spent would be only to your own advantage. You are spending Research and Development to get this done, which is much more than the "production" hardware you will end up with. If you were to do a second, third and fourth identical swap you might be able to bring the cost down to 10K with efficiency and knowing exactly what you need.
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the utec is not compatible at all with the HR ecu. truth is, even if i did get it running on the DE box I may wind up doing a stand alone for the DE ecu instead of the utec anyway as it may be possible to have a stand alone control the variable cam timings, but the utec would still be a possibility at the point that I have this running on the DE box, but not at all with the HR ecu...
I agree that the labor time is of course one of the costs of doing any project. so far the hours I have into this thing are mainly on the research end of things, reading & communicating on my off times anyway, I am looking at much of that time as hobby time & an investment in education, not so much counting that at the same value as actual labor hours, but you'll see that I too do calculate the labor end of things & of course the labor end is not included in the 10k target ballpark guesstimate.
is this the most direct route to my goal of 500+ at the flywheel? maybe not, but, I think all things being equal I would wind up spending many thousands more had I needed to go the built DE route, keeping my existing DE motor as-is is just not an option, it is already tapping away & has seen better days, it's clanking & burning oil & needs to be replaced anyway....
truth is, the amount of ADDITIONAL labor over & above what would have been done had I just stuck with a DE is the real factor to consider here, I mean pulling the drivetrain, painting up another & installing it & everything else would have been required even if I didn't do the HR swap, so the additional costs are just the amount of labor over & above a standard motor replacement. I don't expect to have to put many thousands of $$$ worth of labor in over & above the labor it would have taken to just install a new direct replacement built DE
also, lets say I do wind up getting this all together & running, & at the 450 to the wheels mark give or take... FI is an unforgiving animal, & once you start treading in this territory it is foolish to believe that your engine is now bulletproof & you can never blow it, if you want those kinds of guarantees then just stick with a new car untampered with. well the difference between a built DE & a swapped HR means that if I did wind up blowing the motor then just picking up another HR motor & throwing it in would be much cheaper than having to do yet another built DE, so the upgrade can also pay off big if I wind up hurting the motor... wind up destroying a built DE may cost me 8k where destroying an HR may cost me ~$2,500 or so, these motors are becoming more & more available, & as the supply goes up while the demand for them is relatively small, means a replacement HR should be pretty inexpensive... if the built DE had any advantage over a stock HR then this may not be so applicable, but for my intents & purposes the factory HR motor is every bit the equal of a built DE for my needs
---------- Post added at 01:27 AM ---------- Previous post was Yesterday at 05:42 PM ----------
also want to add that if everything does go as smoothly & as easily as I'm thinking & hoping it will then this may turn into a pretty easy swap too. the systems are very complicated & you have to understand them to be able to diagnose problems & be able to install them corectly, but theres a very good chance that there won't be a ton of big problems really, I think it may be pretty easy in the end... famous last words
I agree that the labor time is of course one of the costs of doing any project. so far the hours I have into this thing are mainly on the research end of things, reading & communicating on my off times anyway, I am looking at much of that time as hobby time & an investment in education, not so much counting that at the same value as actual labor hours, but you'll see that I too do calculate the labor end of things & of course the labor end is not included in the 10k target ballpark guesstimate.
is this the most direct route to my goal of 500+ at the flywheel? maybe not, but, I think all things being equal I would wind up spending many thousands more had I needed to go the built DE route, keeping my existing DE motor as-is is just not an option, it is already tapping away & has seen better days, it's clanking & burning oil & needs to be replaced anyway....
truth is, the amount of ADDITIONAL labor over & above what would have been done had I just stuck with a DE is the real factor to consider here, I mean pulling the drivetrain, painting up another & installing it & everything else would have been required even if I didn't do the HR swap, so the additional costs are just the amount of labor over & above a standard motor replacement. I don't expect to have to put many thousands of $$$ worth of labor in over & above the labor it would have taken to just install a new direct replacement built DE
also, lets say I do wind up getting this all together & running, & at the 450 to the wheels mark give or take... FI is an unforgiving animal, & once you start treading in this territory it is foolish to believe that your engine is now bulletproof & you can never blow it, if you want those kinds of guarantees then just stick with a new car untampered with. well the difference between a built DE & a swapped HR means that if I did wind up blowing the motor then just picking up another HR motor & throwing it in would be much cheaper than having to do yet another built DE, so the upgrade can also pay off big if I wind up hurting the motor... wind up destroying a built DE may cost me 8k where destroying an HR may cost me ~$2,500 or so, these motors are becoming more & more available, & as the supply goes up while the demand for them is relatively small, means a replacement HR should be pretty inexpensive... if the built DE had any advantage over a stock HR then this may not be so applicable, but for my intents & purposes the factory HR motor is every bit the equal of a built DE for my needs
---------- Post added at 01:27 AM ---------- Previous post was Yesterday at 05:42 PM ----------
also want to add that if everything does go as smoothly & as easily as I'm thinking & hoping it will then this may turn into a pretty easy swap too. the systems are very complicated & you have to understand them to be able to diagnose problems & be able to install them corectly, but theres a very good chance that there won't be a ton of big problems really, I think it may be pretty easy in the end... famous last words
I only read part of the thread, so I'll have to revisit this...
I luv the idea and I know that your electrical knowledge will help a ton!
Although the HR ecu may play nice, it may be simpler for you to use the 03 DE ecu and use a standalone to get the power out of the HR.
As a side note, here's a quick thread on a good friend who passed emissions with a standalone on a turbo IS300. Perhaps it will give you some ideas:
http://my.is/forums/f114/passing-obd2-emissions-standalone-339716/
Would you be willing to share some of the doc you've already acquired? Understanding some of the CAN network inner-workings and getting some exposure to the Nissan ecu would be great to have!
Keep up the posts and great info!
In the doable order I'd say:
07 HR ecu (controls all)
03 DE+ standalone
Another option I'll throw your way, is to obtain a jap HR ecu. Most usually don't have the same level of key/ignition security as the US ones. Then you can maybe do:
03 DE (CAN network and obd) + HR JDM ECU (run engine as sort of a piggyback but with great nissan tuned maps!)
Crazy right? haha
I luv the idea and I know that your electrical knowledge will help a ton!
Although the HR ecu may play nice, it may be simpler for you to use the 03 DE ecu and use a standalone to get the power out of the HR.
As a side note, here's a quick thread on a good friend who passed emissions with a standalone on a turbo IS300. Perhaps it will give you some ideas:
http://my.is/forums/f114/passing-obd2-emissions-standalone-339716/
Would you be willing to share some of the doc you've already acquired? Understanding some of the CAN network inner-workings and getting some exposure to the Nissan ecu would be great to have!
Keep up the posts and great info!
In the doable order I'd say:
07 HR ecu (controls all)
03 DE+ standalone
Another option I'll throw your way, is to obtain a jap HR ecu. Most usually don't have the same level of key/ignition security as the US ones. Then you can maybe do:
03 DE (CAN network and obd) + HR JDM ECU (run engine as sort of a piggyback but with great nissan tuned maps!)
Crazy right? haha
yeah, the more research I do & the more I'm learning about all the in's & out's here & the more people I talk to the more I'm leaning toward the thought of running it off the DE ECU & a stand alone. I've talked to a friend of mine from here who works at Nissan & one of the techs in his shop has already done this, HR motor running on the DE ECU & using a haltech to run the cam timing variables as well as everything else. the haltech would have no problem running this, & now I see it's already been done & is working fine, VS the team that did it with the HR ecu & even though it was done with full Nissan support there still having can buss error code that they have not been able to solve.
intially something like the haltech seems to be the more expensive way of doing this, $2,200 vs just $700 for an uprev Osiris tuner for the HR box, but looking even further I'm realizing that with just the uprev I will still need to buy a separate electronic boost control, separate meth injection control, etc, where the haltech has this stuff also just built in. also with the haltech I won't need to tow back & forth to the dealer just to get it running, & then of course all the can buss unknowns & possibilities of issues vs using the ECU that came with the fx & def having everything working fine,
it's starting to make more sense to just go DE ECU & haltech... plus, the haltech is a really nice tool & much more sophisticated & robust compared to just an uprev tuner access, the haltech has extra inputs & outputs that the HR ecu can not, stuff like meth injection & 2 steps are trivial with the haltech, not so much with the HR box & uprev setup...
I've also decided that I am going to do twin turbo's instead of twin rotrex chargers... reasons behind this decission are many but in the end the adjust ability on the fly combined with the cost savings of me doing a TT over a tsc makes this appealing to me, I really want to stay somewhat within budget so I will be building my own TT setup instead of paying jwt or gtm kind of #'s, PLUS don't forget that the available TT setups out there are all built around a Z not an fx, which is why they have to tuck the turbos under the sides of the motor & use log type manifolds, while the FX has so much more room & it makes a whole lot more sense to put the turbo's in front of the motor on an fx.
more on what I have in mind soon as far as building my own TT setup, I will start a thread for this project once it is underway, so far I have not touched the Fx itself, I even drove it home last night for the first time in almost a month, but it won't be long now till I'm at the point of taking her apart... ah, I'm going to miss her & hope she's not down that long...
intially something like the haltech seems to be the more expensive way of doing this, $2,200 vs just $700 for an uprev Osiris tuner for the HR box, but looking even further I'm realizing that with just the uprev I will still need to buy a separate electronic boost control, separate meth injection control, etc, where the haltech has this stuff also just built in. also with the haltech I won't need to tow back & forth to the dealer just to get it running, & then of course all the can buss unknowns & possibilities of issues vs using the ECU that came with the fx & def having everything working fine,
it's starting to make more sense to just go DE ECU & haltech... plus, the haltech is a really nice tool & much more sophisticated & robust compared to just an uprev tuner access, the haltech has extra inputs & outputs that the HR ecu can not, stuff like meth injection & 2 steps are trivial with the haltech, not so much with the HR box & uprev setup...
I've also decided that I am going to do twin turbo's instead of twin rotrex chargers... reasons behind this decission are many but in the end the adjust ability on the fly combined with the cost savings of me doing a TT over a tsc makes this appealing to me, I really want to stay somewhat within budget so I will be building my own TT setup instead of paying jwt or gtm kind of #'s, PLUS don't forget that the available TT setups out there are all built around a Z not an fx, which is why they have to tuck the turbos under the sides of the motor & use log type manifolds, while the FX has so much more room & it makes a whole lot more sense to put the turbo's in front of the motor on an fx.
more on what I have in mind soon as far as building my own TT setup, I will start a thread for this project once it is underway, so far I have not touched the Fx itself, I even drove it home last night for the first time in almost a month, but it won't be long now till I'm at the point of taking her apart... ah, I'm going to miss her & hope she's not down that long...
Good luck with Such a huge project bro.!
Too early to ask this question due to the fact that you haven't start the swap yet but
if everything goes well and smooth. Is this something You might offer to some IS's members at your shop?
Lol.. It doesn't hurt to ask..!!
Too early to ask this question due to the fact that you haven't start the swap yet but
if everything goes well and smooth. Is this something You might offer to some IS's members at your shop?
Lol.. It doesn't hurt to ask..!!
Damn, this is the most interesting thing I've read all week!
Some thoughts:
1. I completely agree with you (turbo) that the HR swap would be a far better option than a built DE regardless of time/money invested.
2. This may be asinine, but how are two TB's different from one in the eyes of the ecu? They always operate in unison right? Obviously there are twice as many leads going to the harness, but does the ecu recognize/operate them individually?
3. In regard to Jumbos comment (spoken like a true PM), I think its important to note that this is not a JOB for you (turbo) but rather a labor of love so to speak. If the swap is keeping you from your work or family than it is an obsession and should be dealt with accordingly. It certainly doesn't seem that way to me. The time I spend working on personal projects is really very therapeutic for me and is thus almost MORE valuable to me than the wage I might earn during that time. Sometimes my projects relate to my profession which is cool, but mostly I don't think of them as work at all.
4. "...I'm NOT a mechanic..." HA.
4. This is going to be the mother of all write-ups when you're done!
Some thoughts:
1. I completely agree with you (turbo) that the HR swap would be a far better option than a built DE regardless of time/money invested.
2. This may be asinine, but how are two TB's different from one in the eyes of the ecu? They always operate in unison right? Obviously there are twice as many leads going to the harness, but does the ecu recognize/operate them individually?
3. In regard to Jumbos comment (spoken like a true PM
), I think its important to note that this is not a JOB for you (turbo) but rather a labor of love so to speak. If the swap is keeping you from your work or family than it is an obsession and should be dealt with accordingly. It certainly doesn't seem that way to me. The time I spend working on personal projects is really very therapeutic for me and is thus almost MORE valuable to me than the wage I might earn during that time. Sometimes my projects relate to my profession which is cool, but mostly I don't think of them as work at all. 4. "...I'm NOT a mechanic..." HA.
4. This is going to be the mother of all write-ups when you're done!
:tonguey: ha, someone that see's my point of view if I didn't have my outlets I may have lost my sanity a long time ago, either that or I have already lost it & I just think this makes sense to me? :fever: & yeah, the HR motor is killer, every bit the equal to a built DE for my use & target, AND even better really, the variable cam timing on intake & exhaust is hot... the way improved intake is a huge plus, you'd need to go to a cosworth to match that kind of even cylinder distribution on a DE I think... can never regret going HR over DE, 2 different animals....
far as the dual TB's, even on the HR what nissan does is run one TB off the ECU as control AND feedback & then just slaves the second just for control, no feedback, so yeah, the DE ecu "should" be able to run duals, but up until now I wasn't 100% sure that driving 2 of them wouldn't overload the DE ecu driver, but since I have now seen that it has indeed been done already & does work, now I'm not so concerned... of course to do this on the DE ecu it would have to either run speed density OR both intake tubes would need to connect to a common intake for the use of one mass air... that's the real difference in this regard, the HR ecu is looking at 2 mass airs & totalling them up where the DE ecu can only look at one mass air for total airflow.... going to speed density with the haltech solves this issue though & I will not be using any mass air sensors at all
this is crude example of what I have in mind for TT in an FX:
View attachment 163908
of course not exactly like either of these, but similar, probably more similar to the first picture really... the Z & G guys have limitations with underhood space but the fx has way more space. having the turbo's up here is going to reduce the pressure drop for all the intercooler piping & everything & make it a bit more efficent than what gtm & jwt have been doing. I'm going to take the set of stock HR headers & turn them around facing foward instead of back & then build the turbo flanges from that, hot rod syle & budget minded, yet should still be even more effective than an out of the box kit designed around the limitations of the Z...
if I didn't have my outlets I may have lost my sanity a long time ago, either that or I have already lost it & I just think this makes sense to me? :fever: & yeah, the HR motor is killer, every bit the equal to a built DE for my use & target, AND even better really, the variable cam timing on intake & exhaust is hot... the way improved intake is a huge plus, you'd need to go to a cosworth to match that kind of even cylinder distribution on a DE I think... can never regret going HR over DE, 2 different animals....far as the dual TB's, even on the HR what nissan does is run one TB off the ECU as control AND feedback & then just slaves the second just for control, no feedback, so yeah, the DE ecu "should" be able to run duals, but up until now I wasn't 100% sure that driving 2 of them wouldn't overload the DE ecu driver, but since I have now seen that it has indeed been done already & does work, now I'm not so concerned... of course to do this on the DE ecu it would have to either run speed density OR both intake tubes would need to connect to a common intake for the use of one mass air... that's the real difference in this regard, the HR ecu is looking at 2 mass airs & totalling them up where the DE ecu can only look at one mass air for total airflow.... going to speed density with the haltech solves this issue though & I will not be using any mass air sensors at all
this is crude example of what I have in mind for TT in an FX:
View attachment 163908
of course not exactly like either of these, but similar, probably more similar to the first picture really... the Z & G guys have limitations with underhood space but the fx has way more space. having the turbo's up here is going to reduce the pressure drop for all the intercooler piping & everything & make it a bit more efficent than what gtm & jwt have been doing. I'm going to take the set of stock HR headers & turn them around facing foward instead of back & then build the turbo flanges from that, hot rod syle & budget minded, yet should still be even more effective than an out of the box kit designed around the limitations of the Z...
- Car
- 2003 FX35T
- Name
- Brad
2. This may be asinine, but how are two TB's different from one in the eyes of the ecu? They always operate in unison right? Obviously there are twice as many leads going to the harness, but does the ecu recognize/operate them individually?
3. In regard to Jumbos comment (spoken like a true PM
2. I could see building a simple logic circuit that would combine both TB signals into one if the ECU can't take dual inputs. If the two signals don't match within a certain range, you would have a TB code thrown - but could make sure the failure would be the same type of failure you would have with one TB (in the eyes of the ECU) to protect engine components. This might be handled by the Haltech, but wouldn't be hard to design and build with radio shack components once you know the voltage signal ranges.
3. Guilty as charged!!! My training was in Mechanical Engineering (electronic control of mechanical systems), but my career path for the last ten years has definitely taken me down the PM path. I only mentioned what I did because the $10K mark might be realistic to Turbo - but not practical to anybody else interested in doing the same. Those who think, "sure - I'll just do what Turbo did and spend the same amount of money" would be fooling themselves. It's tough to put a price on knowledge and experience, not to mention proper preparation.
I agree about the labor of love - obviously I do the same with my own FX, no matter what my wife and her friends say! I'm not trying to be negative about any of this - I hope I'm not coming off that way. Just always out to make my own improvements and if I wanted to follow Turbo's path, I know it would require a lot more cash than he will be laying down. I'd have to pay somebody else to do what he's doing.
well yeah, I'll def agree that what I can do in a budget is not the same as what most others would expect to be able to do. it's probably not practical for most to try & think they too can do a reliable 500+ hp with a new motor & tranny & twin turbo's & all for ~ 10k. I wasn't saying hey, this is a way you can do this, as much as I was saying this is what I want to do myself & no jumbo, no negativity at all from you, I do agree that labor should be counted as a total expense, but then again when it's your hobby then maybe not always as much so... so if I set a budget of 10K then of course I may also add another 6-7k of labor to that, but it doesn't really cost me that extra 6-7k either... maybe a portion of it, the portion that does cut into otherwise productive & profitable time should be counted as actual expense I guess, but that just goes with the teritory I guess & I'm not counting that at all yet
& no jumbo, no negativity at all from you, I do agree that labor should be counted as a total expense, but then again when it's your hobby then maybe not always as much so... so if I set a budget of 10K then of course I may also add another 6-7k of labor to that, but it doesn't really cost me that extra 6-7k either... maybe a portion of it, the portion that does cut into otherwise productive & profitable time should be counted as actual expense I guess, but that just goes with the teritory I guess & I'm not counting that at all yet I think you're spot on for the ems/ecu combo - Although instead of Haltek, I would also look at ViPEC (http://www.vi-pec.com/)
These guys use to create the SM4 ecu and are now upping the ante.
I think your 10k is doable. I honestly think that there is very little work to be done now that you're going the standalone way.
You can probably re-use a lot of your current harness and simply cut what doesn't plug in and splice it in with the original plug.
It's amazing how many things usually plug and plays or simply can be unbolted and bolted onto the new engine.
I would check to make sure the crank triggers and sensor resistors are the same and you'll be set.
I think the most hassle will come from the auto-tranny and make sure that it shifts when it needs to.
Keep us posted, I wish I was closer to NYC, I'd def come to help with putting the thing in and wire it up!
Although judging from some of your work on mp3car, you should be able to tackle all the electronics without much help!
Overall good luck and just another idea (or wrench) you could do something like this:
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=548368&highlight=ls1
PS I know it's a v8 not a v6... but hey I like LSx :D
These guys use to create the SM4 ecu and are now upping the ante.
I think your 10k is doable. I honestly think that there is very little work to be done now that you're going the standalone way.
You can probably re-use a lot of your current harness and simply cut what doesn't plug in and splice it in with the original plug.
It's amazing how many things usually plug and plays or simply can be unbolted and bolted onto the new engine.
I would check to make sure the crank triggers and sensor resistors are the same and you'll be set.
I think the most hassle will come from the auto-tranny and make sure that it shifts when it needs to.
Keep us posted, I wish I was closer to NYC, I'd def come to help with putting the thing in and wire it up!
Although judging from some of your work on mp3car, you should be able to tackle all the electronics without much help!
Overall good luck and just another idea (or wrench) you could do something like this:
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=548368&highlight=ls1
PS I know it's a v8 not a v6... but hey I like LSx :D
- Car
- 2003 FX35T
- Name
- Brad
John - reading about engine management products out on the market and came across this in a recent import tuner magazine. Wondering if it would work for your application - and for much less $$$? I'm considering this for my turbo kit engine management.
AEM F/IC-8 - $600
http://www.aemelectronics.com/index.php?cPath=9_12
In the magazine, this was installed on a G35. There's an "optional" Injector driver for an additional $330 - still both of these way less than the UTEC.
AEM F/IC-8 - $600
http://www.aemelectronics.com/index.php?cPath=9_12
In the magazine, this was installed on a G35. There's an "optional" Injector driver for an additional $330 - still both of these way less than the UTEC.
thanks man but I already have a utec installed, but I'm going to need to replace it with a haltech which is even more $$$. that's my holdup now, $$$ for a pair of turbo's & the ecu & everything else. I've gone back to driving the fx for now, no reason to take it into pieces until I have everything I need. what I need now is $$$ :tears:
gonna sell the utec if anyone wants it, the haltech is necissary to control the cam timing on the intake & exhaust, the utec won't do that for me
& tecknixs, just saw your post... I really want 2 smaller twins. one big turbo is nice for a drag car but 2 smaller twins should be better all around power band with less lag, def want 2 small turbos right up front
gonna sell the utec if anyone wants it, the haltech is necissary to control the cam timing on the intake & exhaust, the utec won't do that for me
& tecknixs, just saw your post... I really want 2 smaller twins. one big turbo is nice for a drag car but 2 smaller twins should be better all around power band with less lag, def want 2 small turbos right up front
almost fully decided on the turbo's I want to use. I want to use garett double ball bearing turbo's. aside from the obvious oil plumbing these turbos are also water cooled which complicates plumbing a bit, but there the best way to go with turbo's I think. I'm leaning towards gt28's, like about the same size as the stock turbo that is used on the s15 sr20 sylivias & older skylines, but 2 of them.
I decided that instead of building the entire turbo headers from scratch I can actually start with the stock hr headers for the really hard part, which is the 3 into one part & all the curves & ton of work involved in building that from scratch. I winded up cutting the stock pipes from the header flanges & fliping the whole thing around to face foward & up rather than down & back, then welding that back togeather. here is what the rest of the foward mounted turbo headers will be built off of. this has saved me a lot of work & will make the turbo headers pretty easy to finish.
I decided that instead of building the entire turbo headers from scratch I can actually start with the stock hr headers for the really hard part, which is the 3 into one part & all the curves & ton of work involved in building that from scratch. I winded up cutting the stock pipes from the header flanges & fliping the whole thing around to face foward & up rather than down & back, then welding that back togeather. here is what the rest of the foward mounted turbo headers will be built off of. this has saved me a lot of work & will make the turbo headers pretty easy to finish.
Nice. Just curious.