FX45 Forced Induction

I agree with all of your suggestions as well.

Methanol, pyrometers monitoring both intake temperatures and exhaust temperatures and a Wideband gauge, have been discussed and suggested. I agree that the cooler the intake charge is the less likely something bad can happen especially with a high compression motor.

I would first start with targeting a richer A/F ratio about 11.7 which is a good starting point monitoring knock retard and then once the A/F has been dialed in then I would begin to increase timing starting from a conservative 27 degrees until either the car begins to show signs of knock retard or the car simply does not benefit from the additional spark.

One major advantage to a rear mounted turbo is the fact that intake charge temperatures are much cooler than traditional exhaust manifold setups; due to the fact that intake charge travels through coated intake tubes.

One additional side point to Methanol; it will actually help clean your intake valves.
 
SouthGateDyno said:
Methanol, pyrometers monitoring both intake temperatures and exhaust temperatures and a Wideband gauge, have been discussed and suggested. I agree that the cooler the intake charge is the less likely something bad can happen especially with a high compression motor.
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is all that really needed? PLX Devices (who makes some of the best stuff in the industry) makes a single gauge that has multiple imputs, and it sleeker then a whole bunch of gauges in the drivers view. It's called the DM-100

Here is a link - http://www.plxdevices.com/products/dm100/

Here is a video of what the gauge looks like, and how it works.
YouTube- Overview of the DM-100/200 OLED Gauges



SouthGateDyno said:
I would first start with targeting a richer A/F ratio about 11.7 which is a good starting point monitoring knock retard and then once the A/F has been dialed in then I would begin to increase timing starting from a conservative 27 degrees until either the car begins to show signs of knock retard or the car simply does not benefit from the additional spark.
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I am curious to know how you plan on controlling fuel and timing? I am hoping I didn't miss it, I read through the thread and I didn't see how you plan on controlling timing or fuel. What sort of setup are you going to use?

11.7 is fine but if your going to run meth, you should be able to get to a 12.5 safely.

And 27 degrees is not conservative under boost. I have tunned some vehicles with timing to be as low as 20 degrees under full load. Now that doesn't mean that I'm funny understanding the rear mounted turbo, as it's still a concept that to me, makes me wonder about it...

all in all, i'm very interested in what sort of setup you plan on using.
 
wperdigon said:
is all that really needed? PLX Devices (who makes some of the best stuff in the industry) makes a single gauge that has multiple imputs, and it sleeker then a whole bunch of gauges in the drivers view. It's called the DM-100

Here is a link - http://www.plxdevices.com/products/dm100/

Here is a video of what the gauge looks like, and how it works.
YouTube - Overview of the DM-100/200 OLED Gauges

I am curious to know how you plan on controlling fuel and timing? I am hoping I didn't miss it, I read through the thread and I didn't see how you plan on controlling timing or fuel. What sort of setup are you going to use?

11.7 is fine but if your going to run meth, you should be able to get to a 12.5 safely.

And 27 degrees is not conservative under boost. I have tunned some vehicles with timing to be as low as 20 degrees under full load. Now that doesn't mean that I'm funny understanding the rear mounted turbo, as it's still a concept that to me, makes me wonder about it...

all in all, i'm very interested in what sort of setup you plan on using.
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I am familiar with PLX; we are in the process of becoming an authorized dealer for their products, we met with them at SEMA '07. They are on the cutting edge when it comes to doing things differently with gauges. So I'm all for it.

The PLX would work just fine. No not all the gauges are required but taken into consideration that this has never been done it would be a major benefit to be able to monitor all vital signs. I would leave the Wideband with it's own gauge, however, based on it's importance.

That is true (about 27 degrees of timing) when under full boost. I usually start with tuning 1 pound of boost at a time so as I go up in boost I begin to pull timing.

Ideally, it would be awesome if we could simply go to a 100% speed density system and eliminating the MAF. But if the tuning software that Techno Square is using can not provide that; then the MAF curve, Spark Table, and VE table will need to be adjusted in the "Boosted" areas. Either by direcly flashing the ECU with the new values or by "piggybacking" the ECU by intercepting the OEM signals with updated values and tricking the computer to do what you want it to do. The later suggestion, is not so integrated but would work fine. We have seen the "piggyback" system work great on boosted Dodge vehicles when there was no way to get into the Dodge computer.

If we really want to have full control then a nice stand alone system from AEM would solve the issue, the only downfall is the price.

A rear mounted turbo is not that much different from a traditional turbo setup. The only difference is that the impellers of the rear mounted turbo are configured differently. You can not take a STS turbo and mount it up front on the exhaust manifolds as it was not designed to work there. Vice versa with trying to put a exhaust manifold turbo in the back.
 
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It seems that Joe is thinking in the right direction. I understand the importance in monitoring the boost, oil Levels Etc.The question now for me is not Joe's ability to make this projext happened, bu to see if Techno Square will be able to help me get there. Once again Joe thanks for participating in this forum and helping me and some would be 45's the opportunity to know that there is the ability to have F/I
 
hmm - there is a lot of concern here with the reflash - I wouldn't use it. the transition of into and out of boost on the timing curves is very dramatic.

If this was my vehicle i at the very least would use something like an Apexi' Safc2 or something a long those lines with a GM map sensor wired into the manifold - this way you can use boost referrence to make the changes to the fuel trims that will need to occur. Also the other concern here is that even with a "reflashed" ecu, it doesn't eliminate the self learning mode they all come with. My cars have been tricked to see such action, and over time the timing curves come back to stock.

While a stand alone is always the full control aspect of it,the AEM one on this 45 wouldn't be best. I would use something like the Haltech Platnium which is designed more for the VQ based engines, but does have programmable cylinder counts and allows you to retain the CVTC on both intake and exhaust as well as the CAN buss system on Nissan/Infiniti vehicles. I would look into that before a plug and play unit.

Please understand, I'm not trying to contradict you here, I just don't want to see you make a mistake on the vehicle and trying to share from my personal experience since I work only with Nissan vehicles.
 
the other thing to know as well about the reflashes is that the injector pulse maps and timing maps are closely related - if you run less timing, you run less fuel. It's almost impossible to run more fuel and less timing on the reflashes - I have seen first hand with my own Technosquare reflashed ECU with full datalog trims, they haven't figured out how to get around it the last time I checked
 
wperdigon said:
hmm - there is a lot of concern here with the reflash - I wouldn't use it. the transition of into and out of boost on the timing curves is very dramatic.

If this was my vehicle i at the very least would use something like an Apexi' Safc2 or something a long those lines with a GM map sensor wired into the manifold - this way you can use boost referrence to make the changes to the fuel trims that will need to occur. Also the other concern here is that even with a "reflashed" ecu, it doesn't eliminate the self learning mode they all come with. My cars have been tricked to see such action, and over time the timing curves come back to stock.


While a stand alone is always the full control aspect of it,the AEM one on this 45 wouldn't be best. I would use something like the Haltech Platnium which is designed more for the VQ based engines, but does have programmable cylinder counts and allows you to retain the CVTC on both intake and exhaust as well as the CAN buss system on Nissan/Infiniti vehicles. I would look into that before a plug and play unit.

Please understand, I'm not trying to contradict you here, I just don't want to see you make a mistake on the vehicle and trying to share from my personal experience since I work only with Nissan vehicles.
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This is great information. Especially from direct experience with Nissan. I am completely open to discussion. The items I have outlined have been from my own experience with other tuning software that does allow us to convert vehicle OS to 2 Bar Speed Density Tunes completely eliminating the MAF and even having a enrichment table directly related to boost.

If we where to come to that point it would require a good amount of research to choose the right ECU and Halltech should definately be a contender.

As to the "Learning" issue you brought up it is my understanding that a vehicle is always targeting 14.7 at normal driving and goes into Open loop at WOT thus ignoring O2 sensors and fuel trims. Are you saying that your spark tables are adaptive? Is this also true for Open loop?
 
yes it is - believe it or not the vehicles wideband sensors give information back to the ecu and the open loop target is 13.1 afr. i have seen the tune on f/i'd sentras with wideband setups from factory (like the fx45) actually start to swing the tune after it's been tunned for 200 miles. we would setup in place afr's to be 12.1 under boost and over time it would work it's way back to a 13.1-13.3 range.

check out this link to something i wrote about the ecu and some of my discoveries on it- http://infinitiscene.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1867&highlight=meth
 
That is an incredible amount of R&D. I do have a couple of questions, will your vehicle fall back to a speed density tune in the absence of the MAF? If the MAF was disconnected or failed by ECU standards?

It sounds like you have a safe tune with the methanol kit; couldn't this tuning solution be applied to HumbertoCali project? Considering the low amount of boost we are targeting?
 
SouthGateDyno said:
That is an incredible amount of R&D. I do have a couple of questions, will your vehicle fall back to a speed density tune in the absence of the MAF? If the MAF was disconnected or failed by ECU standards?

It sounds like you have a safe tune with the methanol kit; couldn't this tuning solution be applied to HumbertoCali project? Considering the low amount of boost we are targeting?
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If you pull the MAF you will put the engine into a safe mode and it will not rev past 2500 rpms - not only that but check engine light heaven will be on his dash board

if you run the factory setup and use meth, you could get away with it without any sort of tunning options - i would use the progressive controller style kit with MAF voltage from snow performance. I personally use it and I am very happy with it. I basically use -20 degree windshield wiper fluid and have the 7 gallon container.

I would also consider a J & S safeguard in case the meth fails for some reason. This will pull timing if knock is heard. Something that will save his motor if the pump fails or something happens with the meth.

You could get away with those two setups, meth and j & S safeguard without the need for a tune/reflash/or standalone and just go stock ecu - your raising the octane with meth and monitoring for knock with the ability to pull timing in case it happens - the only thing is that you won't be able to get maximum power since you don't have control on the timing situation, but that may not matter since you will be pumping meth into the car.....it's all about what he wants, and what he feels comfortable with doing. I personally would do it that way given the limited options and the extreme cost on standalones....
 
the lexus guys use an lms aux fuel controller, senses boost & controls an aux pump to raise fuel pressure in relation to boost,

adding a walbro & a return line to the fuel system, then a pressure regulator controlled by boost is another good way to help insure fuel....

meth injection is awesome, def should be on any fi car...

bert, I have an lms fuel control unit & a j&s safeguard that I was gonna put up on g35driver, I'm going to the utech, if you could use either lmk
 
wperdigon said:
If you pull the MAF you will put the engine into a safe mode and it will not rev past 2500 rpms - not only that but check engine light heaven will be on his dash board

if you run the factory setup and use meth, you could get away with it without any sort of tunning options - i would use the progressive controller style kit with MAF voltage from snow performance. I personally use it and I am very happy with it. I basically use -20 degree windshield wiper fluid and have the 7 gallon container.

I would also consider a J & S safeguard in case the meth fails for some reason. This will pull timing if knock is heard. Something that will save his motor if the pump fails or something happens with the meth.

You could get away with those two setups, meth and j & S safeguard without the need for a tune/reflash/or standalone and just go stock ecu - your raising the octane with meth and monitoring for knock with the ability to pull timing in case it happens - the only thing is that you won't be able to get maximum power since you don't have control on the timing situation, but that may not matter since you will be pumping meth into the car.....it's all about what he wants, and what he feels comfortable with doing. I personally would do it that way given the limited options and the extreme cost on standalones....
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I really appreciate you sharing your personal experience on this matter; as it not only helps keep the project moving, it save a lot of time and money in research. It sounds like the setup you described will work and hopefully will save the project in light of what has happened with the tuning solution, or lack thereof.

BTW, how long does the 7 Gal Meth last you?
 
not a problem! i would like to see this come to light as well -

the 7 gallons really is all dependent on if i'm into it or not - i have seen it last as long as 1k miles and as short as 300 miles - it's really all dependent
 
=Q_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

i need pics of this. one question, though. if you did decide to go with a methanol solution to this, where do you find that?
 
Chi.

Joe has been patienly waiting for me now. I am at the point of letting him do what he does best.

I anticipate to start on the project arround arround the begining of May.

Pictures will come and I can't wait.
 
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